holy smoke,, there is a water mark word in the windows MCE2005,, that i have never seen on PJ before,,, it was buried by the antiglare polar bear,,,, now it stands out llike the proverbial whatever,,,, dammm I cant believe the quality of this image....


edit,,, just saw first white text on black,,,,,,

the contrast has gone out of sight,,,,, UNREAL

hhmmm could I venture to say that it has effectively become 2000:1

well I would say no less than 1000:1


if anyone doubts what I am saying,, well heheheheh noy my problem,, cause you aint sitting here,,, simple formula..

getting pics websized for uploading

As much as I’d like to stay and quiz you, I got to go to bed, can’t keep the eyes open any longer. A combination of UV exposure and lack of sleep lol.
I’ll try to, stay awake long enough for you to upload them.

DJ

ok the process is not been revealed yet,, only because angels somtimes fear to tread,,, but I am mad as a uncut snake hehehehhe


here are results

this one is with test polar bear,,,,

bott of actual image frame glowy,,,, sides off windows area lumy as per previous descriptions

the next one is with orig benq hanging around as usual

ready for more

no side lumies at all now.. wooo hooooo

yep

geez my cam sucks also rescaled grrrr

Oh my,, just put up mark's jpeg,, his fav NEMO.... oh dear what a difference


sorry about quality of pics,,,

poor old five yr old 2.2 cam fully auto,, no controla on it grrrrrr

right these next ones are for those who say 17" does not work,,,,,,,, well take a look at start bar and the slight dulling is caused by fresnel out of sync,, erst wise brite would be even more even ....

and before anyone says fresnel is showing,, yes i know,, but i have reconfiged PJ 8 times thru all this testing phase,, they are out of align relative to each other,,, have not bothered with critical align,, object of this excersise has been "polar bears"
also along the way I have found some interesting facts about lamp alignment too,, suspected before but now fully confirmed,,,, next step is reflector effiency,, have some ideas born out this exercise too,,,,, gawd I need another lifetime now,,,,,,,



pixel ratio is 1200 x 800,, centered on panel,,, not using 1280 x 1024,,, i wanna see what i am doing heheheh,,

well All I can say is my PJ has become a plasma clone,,,

the sharpness is astounding,, even the fake HDTV, looks like HDTV

played a sample true 720P awsome..

Ohh. Daddy like! Hey Elken. Are these pics projected onto a LF screen? If so do you think you can take some pics with 1/2 of LF and 1/2 on some other material or the wall? Also, is it me or is it the pic. The colors appear to be washed out.

Nice Elken, put up the usual Gladiator and show them.

nah it is my cam,,, just nowhere as it is in real life,,, I am so frustrated by it,,, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... s\ob sob,, I am gonna see if I can borrow a friends 5 megapix,,,


edit

just saw first white text on black,,,,,,

the contrast has gone out of sight,,,,, UNREAL

hhmmm could I venture to say that it has effectively become 2000:1

well I would say no less than 1000:1


if anyone doubts what I am saying,, well heheheheh noy my problem,, cause you aint sitting here,,, simple formula..

Awesome Awesome Awesome, did i say......

Excuse my french, so what are we removing exactly?

1. Antiglare film
2.?
3.?

Trying to get it right the third time

Hey DeathRay are you lurking there???


Yes the Key To All Of This Is Deafeating The AntiGlare Feature Of Our Panels

You Woul Be Best Going And Doing The Hard Yards And Reading Theead From Day One,, Started by Poor Simul8R who got a scratch,,,, Heheheheh


as even yet another,,, note

the way this is our PJ's were great before this madness,, but now it's not like looking at a dark pic,, but something thats got punch,, very TV like viewing,, geez I am getting tired of stateing it hehehehh but soooooo good...

Ok so if we buy glare type lcd monitors ( no antiglare ) then we won't have to peel and we'll get the results your getting above?

Sorry Elken, I admit i'm trying to cut corners by not reading the whole thread. I'm doing 14-17 hr days opening a new office. I would like to get the info off to my partner. I will go through it the weekend!

Tony,

I was thinking the exact same thing. We need to add anti-glare info to the
compatible monitors list.

Elkin,

Let me try to summarize where you are right now. See if I got it right.

1) You are currently using an unsplit configuration

2) Your panel is completely bare on the front fresnal side, but has the polarizer on the collector fresnal side

3) You have successfully removed the anti-glare from the polarizer and have the polarizer against the triplet

4) You have figured out how to eliminate artifacts such as glowing and such

What have I missed? Is your projector Keystoned. If so, by how much.

So how do you remove the antiglare layer from the polarizer. Just post steps please,

#2 is wrong... There are always two polarizers. The backlight side has remained untouched and is (I believe) facing the lamp.

Otherwise I believe you are correct.

Late for work...

it could be the contrast to get better, yes.

I always though the ll projectors had more contrast than the stated by the monitor since they have collimated light throw the lcd. tilting the lcd does drop the contrast so since you have antiglare removed+collimated light, it is posible to have achieved very hi contrast values.

however, I don´t think you are in the position to claim any value. I would wait to the meassurement before claiming any value.

Do not take my words wrong. I believe the impresion you have is to have achieved higher contrast, but i just learned the human eye is very complex optical system and hard to control this biotool. My luxmeter does very good work when i need it.

I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt my contrast improved with a simple piece of tape. Blacks became blacker, white became whiter. I really dont need a luxmeter to prove to you what i know, put a piece of tape on and use your own tools.

actually it is not about "proving". It is about documenting, meassuring, valorating, cuantifying...

I believe you, if it means anything.

Mikelish,

Have you tried butting 2 pieces of tape against each other to see if the seam is visible in the projection? I would think that the soapy water would allow us to butt the pieces pretty smoothly against each other.

Rox, honestly, you have the tools, you can test this yourself and you will be sure to do it the correct way (your way).


Phutton, yes i have tried, and when i use water it doesnt net as large a gain as without. Less bubbles, but less gain, so im looking into sign vinyl and window tint applications. Ultimatly i would like to remove the antiglare completly, but elken has not posted how yet.


Cheers

What happens when the adhesive on the tape eventually dries out a crystalizes like those adhesives always do? It may not happen imediatly. But there is alot of drying power flowing through the screen in the form of light.

Also, What about discoloring due to heat and time?

Good points, i think we need to wait until elken fills us in on how to remove the glare layer.

This looks good and cheap.

http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=313&

guess its not that cheap. I didn't notice the per roll price.

Called moniserv.com and spoke to their sales rep. I inquired if they would offer a difference in price with regards to the antiglare removal and just supply the polarizer. Interesting, the same guy I spoke to last when all this began. Seems he still was skeptical that what we were doing was possible and I assured him that it was. Anyway, he is going to send a small sample piece of their polarizer for me to test with. Its a Korean brand, he also has the Nittotango brand? as well (He never heard of Vikuiti until I mentioned it). Also, if we are just looking for polarized film to go to lcdpart.com , they sell them there seperate http://lcdpart.com/doc/film.html .

Now, as far as prices to have the antiglare removed. He may have a deal which will include seperate polars, but first I have to be sure that this is the type of polars we are looking for. So, cross your fingers...I'll try to sweet talk him for a nice deal...p.s., mentioned there was a bunch of us.

But the product bulletin says "Do not apply to plastic windows" though.

Sigh.

Nice find though!

Last night after doing a single test with tape, I went all out. I got several layers of tape and made about a 6x8 inch window in the center of the lcd. I was flaberghasted!

Its somewhat odd, I've seen light improvements before, going from ushio to home depot bulb, and home depot bulb to venture, but I've neve seen anything like this. Dull grayish whites became pure white. Dark blacks became dark bluish grays, which is how blacks tend to look on an unstripped lcd panel. The brightness improvement does not always seem vastly improved for some colors, but for other colors its a night and day differance. The contrast seems to be quadruppled and the image goes from a half ass image to a REAL image where colors are strong and have something to say. The brightness does not always seem extremly higher but the colors are just so vibrant!

I really don't know what kind of brightness improvement we are getting but I will say the overall image looks 10 times better!

I really have to thank Elken and all others involved in this thread for coming up with this idea. Its given me hope again for what I had before considered to be the biggest dissapointment of my life and biggest waste of money I ever made.

AND when you throw in the upcoming proreflector.... for the first time ever I'm confident I will be satisfied.

And I'd like to formally state (in support of this method) that the antiglare is absolutely destroying the quality of our image and should not be tollerated by anyone!

I know brain said these projectors work fine without them, but I really can't agree with him when it comes to using an Xbox with an N6. In my case it made the differance between sucky and wonderfull.

I'm going to see if I can find a temporary tape solution, I'm going to hunt around for 9 inch wide sheets of tape. But I found last night that after that when the water and soap dried up little air bubbles appears that I didn't see before. Wierd, but hopefully I can get rid of that.

What I'm most worried about is applying the wet tape at the edges of the lcd close to where there is some exposed circuitry and stuff. Even if you give it time to evaporate, a microscopic water droplet left on the circuitry could fry something.

My girlfriend just suggested trying a finger nail buffer to polish the antiglare. She might be onto something here.

Don't know if this has been linked to, but here is a very good read:

http://www.gdoptilabs.com/antiglare_vs_antireflection.htm

I linked a very similar page a couple of days ago. I talked to the company that makes the stuff. supposed to be very good but cost $150 a sheet and covers 6 monitors. But they want to sell you a pack of 10 sheets.

I've got 3 sisters that are all girls so I'm sure I've got that in the house. But I think once you apply that stuff, its not coming off.

Mikau,

I hope your 3 sisters are all girls!

I think this is probably the best endorsement this thread could get(well, if you've been following Mikaus' posts anyway ;-)

I had to show off my pj to a couple of guys and one wife last night so I couldnt mess with it the last week or so and I think its time to have a polarbear shipped in ...or I may try toothpaste on the partially depolarbeared psone!...

I think he was referring to the actual instrument of polishing not actual nail polish...which I think mikelish tried and said was reeeeally bad idea

lol, you need to speficy these days, for the record, that was a joke not an idiotic statement.

My concern about the compensation film being on the front side is fine. There is definitely no compensation film at least on the analyzer side of this monitor. My concern came up when I noticed the enormous amount of birefringent effect when the polarizer is off center. I can't recall anyone mentioning the all out birefringent color shifts I witnessed. I just assumed something must be different here. Unfortunately I can't fire this panel up (Torn FFC's) but I can say pretty confidently that it aught to work fine once you get that initial alignment right. Elken: is this birefringent color effect what you found with the test setup?

I also did some quick experimentation with incidence on these polarizer sheets. I can confirm that these sheets are not nearly as effective as the angle increases. I have little doubts that this is unfortunately why the triplet mounting is suffering. The second confirmation is that these are far better at polarization than my camera polarizer. The sheet provides a complete blackout, whereas the photographic polarizer still lets through a significant amount of light. And perfect black and grey levels, as opposed to a deep purple from the camera polarizer.

It seems the actual composition of the anti glare material is a liquid plastic mixed with tiny spheres and sprayed onto the surface. This is the only way I can come up with to describe what I am witnessing. It seems no matter how far you cut into the material, more spheres get exposed while the old ones are removed. This results overall in very little achievable improvement. You hit a threshold, and the process repeats. It seems the only way to defeat the anti-glare is to literally buff right through the stuff. I built a tiny electric buffer to ease the work . So, I'm glad I am giving it every chance I can, but realistically buffing is still lame.

I took a break to pull the laminate off. It was easy by comparison. Slow, scary, but at least you make progress. It was really nice to see that shiny substrate after trying to simulate it with polish for a few hours. I'm keeping test sections open.

TIP: The glue seems to bond much better to the substrate than to the polarizer, so if you can keep it on the substrate side (it won't split) then the removal goes much easier. However, then you have a lot of glue to clean up. I think that may even be the more risky aspect of the job. Imagine scrubbing glue right close to the FFC bonds on some panels. SHUDDER. Doable, but real scary and tedious.

I used some petroleum distillate wipes to remove the glue residue. It works pretty good. They don't recommend petroleum distillate for panels, but same for basically every solvent.

Elken: I am very curious as to how you separated the anti-glare from the analyzer. All I can do is kind of chip it off. Very ugly. You must have a solvent of some kind. Either that or I am reading you wrong. As far as I can tell this stuff is integrated. Are you melting the stuff off ?

Mark.

I am also trying to establish how effective tape is at reducing diffraction/total internal reflection compared to complete removal of the anti-glare. I took a section of the anti-glare and taped it off as best as I could. Then compared the visibility/clarity of distant text/objects with just substrate and a shiny photographic polarizer. It seems both are a massive improvement (as expected). However, there is a difference between the two, just on a much smaller scale. There is little doubt, based on this experiment, that the full replacement is better. The most notable difference is that the colors seem more accurate and richer. Unfortunately I have no instrumentation to measure the difference. And this experimentation is crude and sloppy. Bear in mind, reflection and other factors of a projector setup could not be tested here.

So, full removal compared to tape should give:

Richer colors,
Brighter image,
More clarity.

As long as no other factors are heavily involved.

As for being able to perceive the fresnel grooves, I would suggest placing the collimator further back (out of focus while keeping the panel in focus).

Mark.

I also did not have as easy a time with this polarizer as Elken and SIM seemed to. There was no chance of just pulling up or across and having it peel. I needed to constantly gently pry up the polarizer at the edges with a plastic Wendy's knife. It seems heat and a solvent would have made this much easier. The glue is very sticky.

I would not recommend much use of a metal knife beyond getting the corners started. A plastic edge would be safer there as well. I tried scratching the substrate with the knife, and while it was difficult, it is doable.

I found that the edges of the panel were more bonded than the center. This is probably due to it being pressed in the frame for so long.I think this varies from adhesive to adhesive. Particaularily, water based adhesives are probably the worst. The polarizer itself uses a pressure sensitive adhesive (same with the window tints). The cracking is also due to poor heat/UV resistance. We will need to make sure our adhesive is up to the job. And for sure that it is not water based.

Mark.

Spill the beans on antiglare seperation elken!

Mark, I've, also, been experimenting with the a-glare that I ripped. Cut small sections so that I can try several ways. I proped up my overhead pj and layed out some of the strips to see how they react either upside down, left to right. Interesting, was almost as if I was walking behind Elken when I twisted the strips revealing the differenct colors which he so much express earlier in this thread.

I cleaned some of the glue off the strips using S-L-X Denatured Alcohol, it disolved to a gummy texture but was a bit efforting to rub off but eventually. The first thing I used from the supply I gathered from Lowes Hardware was this one step cleaner and polish called Gel-Gloss. Following the directions I was able to see a little difference but nothing close to the 'tape'. Next was Mother's Mag Polishing creame, kinda gridy but still no change. I've yet to try the toothpaste, paint thinner and/or acetone but after looking closer at the edges and reading your similar discription of this film I'd have to agree that the panel has to go thru some serious buffing in order to gloss out the a-glare. To be honest, total removal is the only way unless someone finds a tape large enough and that can withstand the heat after some hours of use in their pj. And yes, I'd also like to know how this a-glare was seperated as well, if thats true...Elken.

Although, I've sent for a sample of moniserv's polar as I've mentioned earlier, I'm also going to proceed to purchase a full sheet maybe from them as well. Meantime, I'll still experiment with this.
sim

From the website :

Polarize Film for LCD Panel
These are high efficiency, anti-reflection Polarizer films.


Thats what we are trying to avoid!

Whoa, didn't noticed that mikelish. Thanks for pointing that out. But after talking with the sales rep. at moniserv I was assured that the film we were seeking was definately not diffused. He even left the phone just to make sure . But I guess we'll see once I receive the sample polar and the part number which would be better. Once again guys and I'll help Mark preach his gospel....NOT DIFFUSED POLARIZED FILM, MUST BE REFLECTIVE
sim

Im anxious to hear how much they will charge just to remove whats on the panel and ship it back .