I'll experiment with the antiglare film with the suggestions brought forth by some of you. I'm also thinking on purchasing some of the polarized tint for automobiles and see if fitting this KDS into my projector to see what happens. I realize that this tint may not be what we are looking for but I'm going to try what means I have available.

Again, if you fellas would like to see the pics of my stripping the KDS then let me know and I'll explain how I did it. I guess I'm eager to show them to you too...hehe
sim

That’s about a 24% increase isn’t it? got to go to bed.

DJ

Please show the removal steps you took. Thanks .

If you applied to the LCD in a 1mil thick coat, you could then do a very light sanding which would leave the coating very clear.

You would have to use a UV resitant polyunrethane, or have a a piece of XL10 before the LCD, however...

BTW, Nice to see there are poeple out there whoa have as much fun with this as I do!

and I think it was rox(?) who measured how much increase the reflector gave the standard pj and it was about 22% so you've done the equivalent of going from a non-reflector pj to reflector pj if that gives anyone a more visceral feeling for whats going on... I sure remember the difference it made on mine!

I don't get it. Whats everyone freaking out about?

Ok, you twisted my arm. Remember guys I'm not advocating that you do this. I'm just sharing how I was able to peel this antiglare off without damaging the panel. I'm sure some of you have done it and know what you have to do not to put to much stress on the substrate. Here I go.

As Elken described earlier, it is critical that I had a flat table to work off of. Any rises on the table of course will cause the glass to crack while I pressed down on the panel. Worked real, real slow on this. Took me about 30 minutes. And I made sure that I had some soft material underneath not to scratch the other polar. I made sure that it wasn't a thick material cause there may be lumps just used some large paper towels.

First pics are of the panel with antiglare side and the polarizer side.

2nd pics: While using a exacto nife I proceeded to 'pick' at one of the corners of the antiglare until I was able to get it underneath between it and the substrate. While the knife was underneath I slid it along the panel a little seperating the film. Then once I had a little to pull on it I held the substrate down and slowly pulled the film up and towards the middle.

3rd pics: Now, trying not to shake to much (hehe..chills start to build about this time) I held the panel down with fingers and somtimes my palm while SLOWLY pulling the film towards the middle. I did this moving from one side of the film to the next side until it got to hard and stopped. I then proceeded to the another corner and did the same thing all over again. Did this while always providing pressure to the panel but remembering not to press to much.

Here's a pic of before and after of how the panel looks like with and without the antiglare and polarizer film (ceiling light).

wow,

good work, simul8r

It was not me who measured the sphereical relfector increase, it was a guy at diyaudio but the number was right; 22% increase in light.

crosed fingers; have you got a luxmeter? ;D

sorry, guy_grotke? anyway this seems to be at least that important of an undertaking although more dangerous ! but I've had an mmm... excrescence on my panel that I can't get off so it looks like sooner or later I'll go for total removal...

yes, Guy grotke. nice guy.

Simul8r,

I assume that you pulled off both the polarizer and diffusion sheet. If you were able to pull off only the diffusion sheet then our problems with the coatings are over - unless different brands use stronger glue.

heres some clear film that may work
http://www.bsf.com/opticallyclear.html
Peter

good point phutton

thats the question was it just the anti glare ? or the polarizer also?

I have a 7" panel that I may sacrifice and try to peel the anti glare off when i get home tonight...

as long as you understand its highly doubtful (in fact I would say impossible) to peel off the anti-glare and not the polarizer also .... but if you have a replacement polarizer go for it...

looks liek excellent stuff no luck on ggogle looking for a place to buy it though...

Here's the URL for the dealer locator for Bekaert Films

http://www.solargard.com/index.cfm/fuseact..._Dealer_Locator

Looks like they have lots of dealers.

Greg

GAH! Nice work SIM .

If anyone is looking for a good test material to try out your encapsulation or polishing ideas: use one of your Backlight Diffuser Sheets (sigh ).Elken feels the the anti-glare is bonded extremely well to the polarizer. They are basically integrated. Some definite confirmation of this would be handy.

SIMUL8TOR used his exacto right down to the substrate, thus both layers came up for sure.

Elken: If you can scratch it, you can probably polish it (anti-glare).

Elken: I feel it is safe to say that the washout effect you have experienced with unsplit optics is the same effect you would have witnessed with a stock panel in that orientation. My deduction is the polarizer placement has little to do with it. Placing it against the panel should be exactly the same, but placing it slightly away from the panel should be worse. This is due to the off collimated reflections between the substrate and the analyzer. Unsplit optics will therefor be a good compromise for those not owning a large sheet polarizer (and the altered surface facing the lens).

Mark.

What I would like to see is a closeup shot of thick black and white stripes with encapsulation/removal and without (side by side).

I would also like to see Nemo. .

Mark.

Found an interesting company that will rework an LCD into a high-gloss anti-reflective LCD Screen for around $100.

Also has some good theory.

Screen Tek Ltd

wow wooz, i think you might have found something there

I've got a good one for you. Toothpaste works . I got my hands on an old (FFC torn) panel. I put a dab of Crest Whitening Plus Scope () toothpast on a small 1" wide section and started buffing it with Purex toilet paper. I have some of the finest tools at my disposal.

After about 5 minutes of going in circles, and back and forth and all over (applying almost no pressure), I got some more towel and washed the toothpaste off. The first thing I noticed was that the water pooled at the surface I had been buffing, the sort of thing you would expect form a smoother surface. Upon drying it, there was no question that area was significantly less diffusive than the surroundings.

With a power tool I probably could have completely polished the surface in not much time, but toothpaste is probably not the ultimate abrasive.

I would wonder if the toothpaste ingredients would be harmful to the polarizer. I would recommend using as basic a toothpaste as you can find. Baking soda toothpaste (with abrasive) would be great I would think.

All bets are on a CD/DVD scratch remover kit working incredibly well.

And another thing, to back up what Elken has already found, I see no way that the anti glare can be removed without the polarizer coming with it. You can just kind of chip away at it in microscopic little bits.

Oh, and I would say peeling the polarizer off is quite high on the difficulty scale. The best luck I am having is by placing a scraper just underneath and working it up with that. The polarizer I have here is very stiff. And the glue is quite thick (a lot gets left behind).

Mark.

best part of that company wooz is they are by my parents, I will be going home around christmas, hmm early present for me?

Seems all that I can see whats left on the substrate is glass and no other film. Looking at the pulled antiglare's edges with the naked eye I can't see any layers. So my guess is that this diffuser sheet and polarizer is one and the same.
sim

Ive tried abrasives, ive tried multiple laminates at craft stores, im about to go buy some clear nail polish. I have not tried the cd/dvd scratch remover kit yet.

Mike: . I'm not joking. I have a panel here, I buffed an incredible ammount of the anti glare out with toothpaste (a form of abrasive). I'd hold off on encapsulation (Nail Polish). This is big. I would say I put this panel at around zero risk, and again: no worries of matched refractive indices, clean surface, or full encapsulation. I almost fell asleep while doing it.

Mark.

There's a product called Novus Plastic Polish that's available
in different grades. I obtained some free several years
ago but have never used it and don't have anything to try
it on right now.

No Backlight Diffuser Sheets?

Even just take a peice of plastic, scratch up the surface with some sandpaper, and see what you can do.

Mark.

The problem with using toothpaste is that it leaves hundreds of very fine scratches that will probably show when you use the LCD in the projector.

You will have to High Speed buff the panel after you're done to remove the scratches. Or if you don't have a high speed buffer, use a good car wax with a small amount of abrasive in it and polish, polish . polish until the sctaches are gone.

Great work OZ, this is exactly the sort of stuff we need to be doing.
In taking a look at your test images I noticed that your target circles are not white, more of a very light grey. Bumping them up to full white should bump up your brightness even more, althought the brightness ratios will probbaly be about the same. I would suggest that your test images be "*.gif" instead of JPEGs as jpegs try to maintain image quality not colours, while GIFs are lossless and thus maintain colors just with a smaller pallet. Keep us posted with your tests and results we are making major gains now!

Mark, I'll give the toothbrush/toothpaste a try. Gonna try deoxidating car wax as well unless you think wouldn't work. I'll cut the antiglare into say 12 equal sections and show pics of how they came out. But need a list of ways we all think is a feasible. Sound good to you?

Elken: Did I understand previously that the collecting fresnal may have some polarization quality?

From what I've seen so far, toothpaste will give an absolutley incredibly smooth surface. I'll test on a smooth suface to begin with. If wax/polish can be buffed smooth, then I don't see why the actual suface can't. You can polish any solid. It just takes time (rock tumbler). As long as the microscopic abrasions are small enough, they will not effect the light significantlly (that's the whole principle of polishing).

SIMUL8TOR: Do you have a buffing wheel? I'd like to know how much more effective it would be with toothpaste or similar polish. I can't understand why people are saying they had no luck with abrasives. This was too easy.

Actual dental polish could be perfect too. They have those precice high speed pneumatic tools that would be super easy to work back and forth with.

Mark.

Sure Mark, any preference? Colgate, Closeup..hehe..,whitening, tartar removers?

Nail polish was the worst idea ive had yet.

Seconded only by glue stick .

God i love this stuff, Im chucking a buff wheel and opening a nice tube of toothpaste.

heheeh....IT'S ALIVE!!!!....ALIVE!!!!!.....MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

It has to be a ToothPaste and not a Gel.
I think basically any one that has white paste without much else is fine. Unless you want a whiter minty fresh LCD.

If you want to go the polishing route, this stuff is the best. It's called Micro Mesh

http://www.thecompleatsculptor.com/catalog...s/micromesh.htm

Mark yes,,, field fresnel does act somewhat as a 'polar bear'

due to the way it works,,,, not strickly refraction as in normal glass lens

fresnel is as we know circlular prisms,, which reflect,, and bend according to angle.. so light reflected is somewhat polarized,,, as per one of my posts yesterday I think when describing how sun,, sea,, polariod sunglasses work,, only on light reflected by sea is polarized,,, the rest of the scene is visible due the effects of "Birefringement" same principle

so the prismatic reflection is in effect here,,,

my currnet setup is much like having a commercial PJ

the full 1280 x 1024, panel there is a slight lumenosity,,

outside of my 1200 x 800 windows,,, normally this would be black,,

so in effect unsplit optics,, the cone of light is passing thru LCD down to triplet,, the angle of rays,, is effecting the way the 'polar bear' is working,,

everything about image is perfect,, only this lumey effect,,

arhhhhh paint brush is drying,, Painting border of my LF MMUDse screen heheheheh half done,,

Sim Sim Sim Sim ???????

What's Alive ?????

Number 5????

I believe the way you use it is to use only a side to side motion. Then go to a smaller grit and use an up and down motion. Then go to an even smaller grit and use side to side motion again.... Continue this pattern until polished. Stuff is awsome.

I think I know where the filter replacement is going to lead us. Many of the new laptops LCD are hi contrast low diffusion hi glare displays. When we find a source for their OE films we can use them on our displays. One step skin and stick.
We should gain most of the contrast and all of the transmissive properties of the new style LCD's that we want. Soon very soon I bet.

toothpaste just cant match , good old duck packing tape .

Elken when you say there is "slight lumenosity", what do you mean?

similar to when you take contrast up and you see the black bars area,, starting to turn dark grey,,,

even with this the contrast does not seem to be affected, in fact I can drive the digital contrast very high ( normally we get almost just black and white only 'ugly' ),, which in turn gives even more definition,,,,

sounds wierd but true

this why I have said geez almost a hundred posts back,, that this setup works like your regular CRT TV..

much more variation in our digital controls brite/contrast/gamma/ hue/colour/

reason why they work better,,, simple,,, brighter image,,, you can all the fancy digital control,,, but if you live just under the threshold ,,, you will always be adjusting it,,, such as in the Matrix,, which is a superb testing DVD

Thanks sav8or...hmmmm, simul8r...what clan u from sav? hehe.

This might be off the wall Elken, but have you tried just putting the collector right up to the panel without polarizer and see what you get? I realize that there has to be a 90 after the first polar but if the fresnel does have some polar quality, hell....just for s....and giggles.

Im having a hard time visualizing more then just the blacks being dark grey. Thanks for the explanation though.


I will be taking my LCD to a window tint guy, who seemed very intrigued over the phone. Since i have a dukane4003, i can test things quickly without plunging into a projection box. If he doesnt have anything to offer better then the tape, ill just remove it and look for a replacement polarizer.

here is what i used to clean adhesive off orig 17" BENQ antiglare after removal

yeah yeah I know only the best tools

I dont recommend acetone,, unless you test a corner first, to be sure,, not all 'polar bears may react the same to acetone,,,

hmmmm Kitchen is the best tool resource,, hehehehhe

and for,,

MARK,, pics of nemo

ignore tinging of colour,, my cam does not show properly for some reason and ignore darkish on right side,, just my lamp out of posistion,,

clive