Maybe see about the cost of removing the polarizer and analyzer. And sending a couple replacements. Or how much it would cost just labour and no parts (we want to try reflective polarizers).

Mark.

Ok Mark, I'll hold on..... :angry: "pout, pout, pout"

'yeah!'

A nice warm panel will make removal of the filters a lot easer mabey some time with a blow drier until nice and warm would help in Arizina a trip outside would work. If applying a film with water the window tint guys use a small squigee not a towel a towel will not remove all the air bubbles becouse of uneaven pressure

Oh. I thought you were concerned with the full blast light that would be reflecting off the walls of the tunnel that connects the panel to the condensor fresnel. I never concerned myself with light getting around the analyzer or fresnel (But it is a good point). This is because I feel a design that allows for that is pretty much asking for it iether way. A white scene without the analyzer in place is going to be around 15-20% brighter than with.

Analyzer replacement or not, I imagine a cloth baffle around the keystone mechanism is a good idea.

Of course, this only applies if the builder chooses to use a reversed panel, or to upgrade their polarizer, or wants to put the ultimate plan to test. This does not apply for those just looking to remove their monitor Analyzer (anti-glare) with a standard orientation.

Mark.

Hey Mark: "Retardation Film
Retardation film is a Japanese innovation to improve contrast on STN and TN cells and to provide for black and white and color on STN display cells. The principal operation of the film is to retard or shift one component of the light to convert the elliptically polarized light generated by the display cell into the linear polarized light required by the polarizing sheet, as Figure 2.1 illustrates. The film is sometimes referred to as a phase compensating sheet or compensator."

check this link out: http://www.wtec.org/loyola/dsply_jp/c2_s3.htm

ok been reading,, let my memory work here,,


deathray,, I suggested it be advanced techniques,,, due to the risks involved,, and still think this should be the case,,,

in fact I think Brain should have a permenant header on this thread prewarning no matter what.... this has been my biggest concern... but my thrill has also overridden this...

Hmmm that is one cracked panel

the first panel I did, was pulling up whilst teasing seam with exacto knife..

some of the polars are almost bittle like,, so best to in sections,, and dont pull full width,,, do a corner,, if it becomes tight,, do another corner,, these methods are not to retrieve the polar,,,

my benq was a real worry but came off surprisingly easy,,,

do not under any circumstances, do not pull up on panel,, this will crack it for sure,,pull along its length,, this is where its strenght lies,,,also this is why I have not consider the other polar,,, even tho I have dismattled no less than five panels now.. I do have the edge of adept technical skills,,,, its a feel as you go, based on that...
a bit like glass cutting,, confident knowlege you go score crack, clean cuts,,, us we go nervy score, nervy break, and oops,, bad break.. same thing...



ley me go back and read some more,, brb

Dont take that cracked panel as a sign of bad ideas, it was just a worthless dead LCD in my closet and i was rushing things. As you have proved, its possible to do it with no harm. Now....to clean these shards off my kitchen table....

ahhhh that panel had a stress fracture,, right at the edge... I made sure it was always flat on a cloth,,,

ummm now cleaning,,, I found that acetone was only thing that softened the adhesive...

and also claened the glass,,, another panel nailpolisher remover worked best,,

on my BENQ 17" model 71 fp+e acetone cleaned the glue off polar bear very well without touching the polar itself whew,,, but prolonged soaking would disolve it

i covered this in earlier post..

thanks, nice to hear that.

The gain increase is a fact. But I think we should know at least an aproximation of the improvement. Also, I don´t know if there is any contrast drop, but COULD be posible it to happen. Take your time on it.

have been thinking.... what relation is there between lumens and watts? could you tell me what is your tool? I can search for it's specs on the google.

there is a conversion,,, but ,, it has but's,,,,

Lumen's to watts .001496

lots of buts there.

your conversion constant is for 550 nm wavelenth only. mmm, can´t you ask somebody for a luxmeter ?

thats simple,, just do a green screen,,, hehehehehe

then exstrapolate the red to blue

ok, but you should meassure how many green light is on the lamp as well so you can work out the % of the trasmitancy. Any clue on how to do that?

not quite sure what you are asking for,,

forget it, I posted too soon

mm, now hnking about the extrapolation to blue and red...
would you say this?; wattage on green will give me lumens in green, then multiply this lumens by 3 and I have total lumens.

its me ,, but I read and read that one,,, i think my brain has shutdown,, to econo mode tonight... but at least there will be a point of reference, to work from,,,

oh ps deathray,, i think made the comment,,

the whites are clearly near to 50% brighter,,, and of it scales back down to blacks which would some level higher brightness,, logically,,, but adjustable by digital controls

normally we would use visible spectrum blue to red, as measurement

as a guess,, till measured,, i would say green the middle would be about hmmm say 25% brighter,, browns maybe 10%.. of course spectrally there is a clear relationship,,,

the blues with this modification,,, are beautiful,,, hehehhe green grass looks more real too,,, without the diffusion effect of antiglare skintones are so much more real...

measurement is good for confirmation,, but at the end of the day,, its in the eye of the beholder,,, and at the moment,, i am the only beholder,, in the world at this time..,,, I think

ummm another point of reference,,,

unbeknown to my son about my modifictaions,, who lives with his mother,, but comes often to visit,, he walked in and went wow, what did you do to make the PJ so bright ,,, and his other comment was,,, so much bloody sharper....

hence external reference..

hmmmmm,, looking at our local news on chn 9 something dazzzla would know what i mean,,,

the weather map,,, and the honey thats read it,,,,

looks so much like a crt image,, all in balance

yes, nobody is discussing the gain increase here. That's evident.

well, once i meassured my crt screen with the luxmeter. took some meassuremts close to the screen, white, red, green and blue. The conclusion was; R+G+B=very close to W. But as curiosity, G was 65% of W, R was 25% of W and B was 10% rougly.

I believe this is gamma dependent as well as your custom setup on the monitor...

Well, remenber to post whatever you do here, I will have an eye here all the time.

makes sense that reading as blue is very strong,, and usaully needs to be toned down some..

goes with real life,,, red lights for night vision,, cause blue would kill acuity

tomorrow night i will do 50/50. polar bear in PJ, then take a pic and post it

orig benq polar and the test piece without antiglare,,


Geezzz mark my new desktop mascot,, is soooo cute and cuddly,, i just wanna get him more ice heheheheh

Hi all.
Elken, are you running the BenQ facing the lamp or facing the screen? If youre running it 'facing screen' what software are you using to flip the image? (or is it just in the video drivers?) FFD has a flip feature, but it only effects the video playing (or so it appears)

I turned my sled around thisevening and shuffled the lenses alignment a bit. Image is better, but that might just be a case of my optic alignment getting better.

oz I am using a NVDIA graphics card,,,, the Nvdia drivers include a NVkeystone feature,,, part of it is the ability to flip image,,,,

it uses memory,,, works well,, MCE2005 work too till it goes full then reverts grrrr

not ovly worried however, have not spent too much time on prob,, been more concerned that this whole setup works ok,, so far so good

bit of a pain,, boot up is backto front,,,,

another way to overcome problem is to convert pj to vert with FS mirror,,

so do you think reversing lcd made a difference,, expand a bit more if you can,, curious

clive

Ok, Mark...did the test with scotch packaging tape over 'scratch', it still shows but lightly. Perhaps its the brightness thats over powering the darkness of the line itself. hmmmm...I think I know where you were going with this...maybe if filling the scar with adhesive from the tape when lamenating. I didn't take the panel out to do this which means adding some pressure otherwise I can still see that it's there. Here's a pic:

Sim try that again but mist wet the tape first,,,

wow how did you get that mark?

why you see it is a sort of Birefringement effect,, I think

geezz I need to get some polar sheets grrrrrrrr

hey sim what panel is yours brand and size,, contast ratio

Guys any chance that I can get some confirmed info so I can talk to my partner who has an lcd manu. plant?

If we're still not 100% sure then I'll wait.

cheers

That is an excellent connection indeed. My concern is that if we were able to source absolutely bare panels, would they be graded? At what point in the manufacturing process do they check for dead pixels? Maybe they are set up with a test rig that has polarizers to grade the panels. But more likely they grade them once all films have been applied.

wow, well that did it, I can barely see it now after using the wet method. 'Scratch' one up for good, quick fix if wanting to use the simpler way. This is getting even better. Seems, since I repowered the lamp its getting brighter and now I'm looking even harder to find it. Somebody ask for percentages...I'd say the tape method eliminated the scar by 95%....wait, getting brighter 97, 98....

Elken,.....looking at this larger piece of tape on my screen is making me more want to rip that antiglare off....GAWD, SOMEBODY STOP ME!!!!

Cornea CT1503T, 15", 500:1

gawd that was affirmative action.... looks good does it not?

quit teasing me... :angry: ...sorry, but I'm settling for the advance way, definately!

In regards to just tape:

Ive found if nothing else it fixs the white level (no more hazy yellow tint), and cleans up all colors based on that. It also in my experience has no influence at all on black level (i display solid black and can not see the tape).

My question to you elken is, is there an even larger gain by just completly removing the antiglare, rather then covering it up?


Cheers

Wow this does work I put alittle strip of tape on my benq557s v2 and it made a huge difference. It made my white much brighter, my colours had a more punch, and it gave a glossy yet not hotspotted look.

Do you guys think a untinted window tint would work in the same way, as its quite easy to install bubble and wrinkle free, I do large format graphic installions for a living, so that would be a peice of cake. I know on buses that we decal we use a 3M control tac vinyl on the coach and a 3M contra vision product on the windows so you can see the ad on the outside but still see through the inside. This is basically a window tint, but it has a layer of vinyl (that can be printed on) that has holes punched out in a matrix pattern stuck to a clear layer of tint. So I was wondering if just the smooth glossy layer that was untinted would work.

A word of caution though, I install and remove alot of vinyl and tints on a daily basis, and just to let you know, when you are removing these products there is VERY LARGE amount of static electricity that produced in the removal process. So I would be very carefull how much play around with this stuff. Also would taking a thin peice of glass the exact size of the LCD viewing surface with a layer of high sheen untinted window tint applied onto the glass work, if it was clipped directly onto the LCD? As this would be less risk to the actual panel. And may be easy method for people that were unwilling to risk their panel by removing layers of panel or trying to add adhesive layers to the panel itself.

We are doing a UAV project together. Your questions are valid, I can ask him at the same time I give him the precise specs needed of the lcd.

I'll say again I'm still not 100% sure if he can, several weeks ago he said he would but now the process involves a more stripped down version. I don't know how this would affect their line process. All I can do is ask. I'm sure if it does disturb the system then I won't press him. Thats why I want to be sure of our needs first.

damit, somebody please stop me....hehehehe Just fooling around with this guys, dont mind me, just can't help myself....

What did you do to achieve those results?

wow Brian, I guess you haven't been following this thread for a while.

Try the scotch packaging tape on your lcd (antiglare side), apply water to the adhesive side and kinda laminate it on removing bubbles and extra water. Makes the panel very transmissive.

You need to add a little soap just water will not alow it to move and evenout without bubbles. Same as applying window tint.

My goodness WHAT have I done

I think I have created a monster.....

dont go ripping panels apart yet till I get some polar bears,,,,for full and final testing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

and if you do venture this way

be very cautious
Branchild spent a lot of time creating these LL projects,, we dont want to put off the newbies who jump in head first and end up in trouble,, ergo damaging us all

and remember water and electronics dont mix....

Your right, I didn't use just water. The closest thing that was sprayable was this plastic cleaner called Plaskolite it acted the same way like soap added.

No Sim, I have been TRYING to follow it. Too many MAD SCIENTISTS posting so fast I can't hardly keep up Kudos to everyone willing to experiment with their lcds. Some of this looks very promising.

I will be getting the magic cover, and giving it a shot after my class's get out tonight. Im giddy

Ok, got a response from 3M Vikuiti, heres their price list. It's in PDF. Theres no way in H... that I'd pay that much for just 1 kit.

(edit) oops...

Once we determine what, if any of these we should get it looks like a perfect group buy.
The price for a single sheet isn't too outrageous, roughly $55.00.

well looks like about 30-55$ per sheet which is steep but not really that bad I think, polarizer.com polarizers are about 15$ each or so? depending on how much better the 3m ones are it might be worth it(though it would have to be pretty big differnce)...group buy if someone can first get ahold of a sample?

Yup for window tints, you normal just add a tiny drop of soap to a spray bottle of water. There are also products like rapid tac, this works very well on glass, as vinyl films have millions of little adhesive bubbles in little membranes. And when you apply pressure with a squeegie it burts those bubbles and spreads the glue. Rapid tac, basically softens those membranes and allows the glue to spead faster and more even with less pressure with your squeegie. But also gives you less time to work with the material.

I personally do all my viynl and 3M tints dry, I hinge the material with tape on either end. Then I fold the top down and seperate the backing and cut the backing off. Then with my squeegie make even front edge pushed strokes with my squeegie from the hinge seam working my sheet towards the top, then I remove my hinges, and pull the backing down tell it meets the bottom of the sheet and start working down and pulling the backing down as I go (I do this with sheets the height of double decker buses and 54" wide) bubble and wrinkle free. But installing tints and viynl dry and smooth takes alot of practice. I have been installing large format graphics since 1989 so its gotten pretty easy now. In the beging I did all my tints wet/soapy, as I was not confident enough to do them dry. This is also very dependant on good vinyl or tints, I only use 3M control tac or scotchcal vinyls, as they are easy to work with and much more forgiving. Avery also has a few good lines as well on there upper end, but there lower end stuff is garbage.

3M products have very forgiving work times, can be lightly tacked and peeled back and reinstalled without glue loss or sheet deformaty, they also have very even glue dispersment, and the glue packets break with minimal pressure, making dry tacks easier. Cheap tints are next to impossible to apply dry, and require VERY lightly soaped water (like a drop in a spray bottle) or a product like rapid tac. Don't forgot most soap is actually detergent, and is fine on a window or a bus etc, but I don't know how much I would want detergent pancaked onto my LCD. And if you don't squeege all the moisture out, you have greatly increased the chance of your glue failing.

ANTIGLARE VS. ANTIREFLECTION


Two terms used to talk about the impact of ambient lighting on displays are reflection and glare. The reduction of these is done using surface treatments for the display which are termed antireflection and antiglare. Because these are often confused, communications between display users and display engineers are often less than optimum. In this monograph, we will attempt to provide some guidance in usage.

Glare Definition
Glare is technically a phenomenon related to the surrounding environment of a display, and, as such, is beyond the ability of the display engineer to directly control. As used commonly by display users, however, glare refers to a reflection from the display which is highly distracting. Typically a user will call an obvious reflection of a white shirt in a display as a glare which reduces his ability to perform his tasks. This is actually more correctly a specular reflection (see Reflections on Reflections). Treatments of the surface to minimize this are referred to as antiglare or antireflection treatments. Antireflection treatments reduce the difference in refractive index between air and the display in a way which is the optical equivalent to impedance matching in electronics. Antiglare treatments, on the other hand, leave the impedance mismatch present, but cause the reflections to be scattered into all directions.

Antiglare Surface Treatments
Antiglare properties are produced by roughening the surface of the display. This roughening can be done by any one of several processes; mechanical, chemical or depositions. Chemical or deposition processes are most commonly used for displays. In the chemical process, the glass or plastic overlay to be applied to the display is etched with an appropriate solvent; buffered hydrofluoric acid for glass or an organic solvent for plastic. This removes material in such a manner as to leave a microscopically roughened surface. Deposition processes involve spray or dip coating the overlay with a solution which, on drying, will leave a roughened layer behind. A common method involves using a nano-particle suspension of SiO2 which leaves behind a random distribution of particles when dried.

This surface treatment changes the ratio of specular to diffuse (Lambertian) reflections.
Figure 1

Figure 1
Lambertian distribution is the sum of reflections in all directions.

The degree to which this occurs is measured by a glossmeter. This instrument rates a surface in terms of percent of specular reflection; 92 gloss is a highly polished surface and 30 gloss is a very diffusely reflecting surface (approaching paper in appearance). See the Application Note on Gloss Standards and Measurements for further information.

Antireflection Surface Treatments
In contrast to antiglare treatments, antireflection films are all deposited onto a substrate. Careful design of the film involves specification of the refractive index of the glass or plastic and of the surrounding medium (typically air). With this information, the designer of the film can make a determination of which materials to use and the thickness to be deposited. Process control in production is obviously a key element, as well. These films can range from a simple, low cost single layer, typically made from magnesium fluoride, to higher performing, higher cost multiple layer deposition. These films are able to reduce the specular reflectance of a surface from the Fresnel value (about 4% for glass) to less than 0.5% over the visible range. More exotic coatings can be even lower.

Which Do I Need?
Because of the difference in antiglare and antireflection surface treatments, it is possible to apply them independently or jointly to the display. The choice of treatments must take careful account of the environment in which the display will be viewed. For locations which have a few highly localized sources of light, a gloss of 60 with AR coating is recommended. In other applications where the light source is more diffuse (such as an outdoor kiosk), a more highly polished surface will generally be more desirable. The final choice can only be made by an on-site evaluation of displays with alternative finishes and under a variety of lighting conditions from full light to full nighttime brightness.

http://www.gdoptilabs.com/antiglare_vs_antireflection.htm

Antireflection?? maybe these guys have some info.

Sounds like a good idea. I'm also waiting for a quote from moniserv.com for professional removal 15's and 17's and with seperate polars not laminated, so, stay tuned.