True, but imagine the image coming out after the antiglare and into your triplet then onto your screen. The waves would still be bent by the curves on the antiglare and not giving you a sharper image and brilliance. Hence, thats why some others have reported not much lux change turning their LCD's around.

I think post #347 was somehow missed.

The light will be refracted regardless of direction of travel.

Total Internal Reflection is only at play when light attempts to cross from a higher density material into a lower density. So it only applies when the anti-glare is unmodified and facing towards the projection lens (plastic to air). Only light that is close to perpendicular to the anti-glare surface would pass through, while the rest would be reflected. This is interesting, because it would indicate that when flipped, and not modified there could be massive undesirable effects of (uncontrolled) total internal reflection. So I would predict that having the panel the other way around, and not removing/modifying the anti-glare could result in a poorer image overall. Should this be corrected, I still feel the image has a good chance of being better, though.

So in the one direction, adding tape/modifying the panel has the effect of removing Total Internal Reflection and undesirable refraction. Whereas with the anti-glare facing the lamp the modification will presumably only help with refraction. Total Internal Reflection would simply not be an issue in that direction. Cool.

So straight up: if you want to place your panel with the anti-glare facing the projection lens, you would be best to eliminate the Total Internal Reflection that is inherent to that orientation.

Mark.

oh god, just when I though I was beginning to understand all this..sigh... in other words.... huh? so are you saying the tape would help MORE if you have the anti-glare(ie "front") of the LCD facing the light or away from it?

I guess to break that down:

Encapsulating/removing the anti-glare will help remove refraction and Total Internal Reflection. What I am saying is the tape/removal should always be used, but it is on double duty when the anti-glare faces the projection lens.

There will always be undesirable refraction in either direction. There will only be undesirable Total Internal Reflection in one direction. The tape/removal fortunately is able to solve both problems.

I am pointing out Total Internal Reflection as a degrading factor in reversing the panels. Up until now, there have been no ideas against the flip (other than a reversed image).

Edit: Thanks for bringing up Total Internal Reflection SIMUL8TOR. It just about slipped under the radar .

Mark.

Your welcome, Mark. Of course I'm not sure how I did but I'm sure glad your here to ellaborate and make things much more clearer.

Just want to point out to you all that have read thru this thread or just skipped to the last page, if you do try the scotch tape test as Elken suggested then please, please post a picture. It be interesting to see the consensus of your results. I haven't done it yet cause I'm taking Elken's word for it, but waiting for his final report is like prolonging the agony, so, I suppose in the meantime I'll give it a try as well.

Just place a piece of 'clear' packaging tape on your screen (anitglare side) preferably 2" wide unless your planning on doing half a screen and look and TAKE A PIC of your projection.

Hope to hear from you all soon as to what you find.
sim

Ohhhhh so you now are a "sim"

I was doing short cuts refering to everyone,, lazy side

maybe I should just do cve as sig... heheh

actually come to think of it, I am not the only one to commit a crime against a panel,,, you did first,,,, then tried to cover your crime,,, now there are nearly 18 odd pages describing your crime,,,,, heheheheheh

clive....

Well heres mine...must say it looks better in person but you can clearly see the edges and see the side that is brighter.

(edit) I gotta add this...the cone is better too. I'm flat to the wall with my face and I can still see the area that is brighter. UNFREAKINBELEIVABLE!!!!!

woo hoo. some else has done it...

when you peel it off,, it comes off easily,, but still take care

clive

Is that a picture of the lcd or the projection? I can't hardly make out the pictures.

I gotta admit Elken, looking at this tape on my low grain screen is like night and day. If this is like having one of them expensive screens from Da-lite or Firehawk, etc.. then I can imagine what it would be like on a higher gain screen like perhaps MM's LF or perhaps Da-lites High Power. Certainly, undisputably, handsdown brighter!! AND THIS IS JUST TAPE OVER ANTIGLARE!!!! Imagine removing the antiglare and add better polarizers!

So Elken, whats up your sleeve come this weekend?

Projection, seriously guys. Give it a try you'd be astonished.

another test.

sorry,no pics BUT....its amazing! I have an old psone screen I attempted to use in a pj that didn't work out for various reasons so I did the tape test a minute ago....(too chicken to use my pj ...yet) ....used a flourescent light behind it... put a strip of packing tape on it .... on the untaped side I could see where the light was...vaguely... on the taped side it was like looking thru glass!! seriously...it was freaking amazing ... I could even count the grooved lines in the plastic covering the lightbulb ... like looking thru greyish sunglasses.... as opposed to the untaped side was like looking thru murky swamp water.... however...tape is definitley not the way to go... too hard to get the bubbles out I think...although it was kind of old tape and not the best .... but it definitley makes a MOST discernible difference.... ... you can vaguely see where the light is but thats about it...
back down to the lab with the xacto knife.... oh .. it looked the same viewed from either side(only tape is on the anti-glare(ie front) side .....

wrote that about an hour ago...siml8tr...elken..is unbelievabke indeed... haven't stripped the film off the back yet, the wife needed some tlc ;-).... anyway.... when I took the film off the front it definitly still worked from a distance(holding the film far away from the lcd) .... oh... if you try the tape test leave yourself one corner of the tape bent up to make pulling it off easier ;-)

good pics... one thing I wondered about is hotspotting, the tape made the lcd so clear I wondered about hat..looks like you did yours in the middle of the screen...any sign of spotting? and you are one brave person to use your pj!

DAMIT, didn't think about that............need more beer!!!

Didn't see any playing a little of 'Last Samurai'. Elken, did you find any hotspots while watching some of your flicks?

This thread is hilarious. A weeks worth of ranting, untill the weekend comes. Then we put some tape on our lcds, oogle and drool all over ourselves untill the weekend is over, then go back to ranting and screaming and senseless discussion over polarizers.

Good thing thats not whats really happening but at times it looks that way.

Anyways, I think I'll try that tape test meself, but I'll need to find some tape.

could someone please tell me what it is we're waiting on for the antiglare removal process? There seems to be much debate over what kinds of polarizers to use, where we can put them, etc, but why can't we just buy one and do it? Basicly what I'm asking is "what are we waiting for?"

I'd think this tape mod along with the da-lite video spectra screen would be a very nice improvement, try the tape with that sample, you should have it with the pack they sent you mikau.

Actually I only asked for the high power sample. Silly me.

Does the PS1 have an antiglare treatment? I hope so cause I don't want to think about how this is working anymore .

I just stopped into the Staples Business Depot to look through different tapes. A good test tape that I found was Scotch Photo & Document Mending Tape. Its only 3/4" (19mm) wide but is acid free, so there is pretty much zero chance of their being a reaction with your screen. It's also meant for sticking right on top of photographs so It seems super clear and super flat. I also got a good laugh over the "Magic Tape" I have been suggesting. Turns out it is anti-glare tape . DOH!

But here is the really good news: I talked to the manager about the possibility of ordering in something from 3M. She said "No Problem". Then I asked here if I could order "Anything 3M makes?". She said "AAAnything". And I said "Really??!" and she said "As long as you know the product code, we will get it for you".

If she is for real then if anyone wants some rear projection screen material, or brightness enhancement films, or reflective polarizers to play with, then you know where to go.

Mark.

wow! And how drunk did you have to get her?

And this is what we are waiting for Mikau. If it wasn't for Mark, Elken wouldn't have picked up where he left off and possibly deserted the idea. Right now, we are waiting for Elken's final report on the numbers i.e. distances, perhaps type of polarizers he has about (now Mark is gathering better poloarizers), how keystoning may be done, professionally stipped or stripping yourself (Elken figured whats best method), Petroleum Benzine test?, heat issues..etc, etc,.... If you don't see the need for Elken's report then proceed at your own risk. I'm waiting on reference book here just like the LL pamphlet.

I would suggest that someone try a wet application of the tape. This should allow you to squeegee out the air bubbles and it should eventually dry and stick. Kind of like the way they install window film.

Of course don't short out your panels. If we are to get this to work as an option, we have to find a good application technique.

I also have been thinking about a film that is hot in the graphics industry right now. It has a polymer coating that allows inkjet printers to make really black prints on acetate. Some folks use it as a cheap alternative to make film positives.

The thing about it is that the coating is like gelatin when wet. I bet if this film were wet and applied to a screen, it would be very effective in filling pits in an antiglare surface.

I think that this polymer is a lot like the polymer used in those blackhead removal strips... very sticky but water removable.

So there is definitely no worry with using this Scotch Photo & Document Mending Tape. I would presume the same with most other pressure sensitive tapes. I just stuck it to my iMac's screen, and no worries. Just don't pull the stuff off too fast, let the adhesive pull itself. No residue, no problem. Mind you: there was also no heat.

I found a definite increase in viewing angle. Right now I attribute that to Total Internal Reflection. Head on I noticed no increase in brightness, though. But this is not a projector.

I tried the wet application. Got the tape wet, shook it off a bit, then stuck it on. That is a great technique, DeathRay . I'm not sure how long it would have taken for the tape to dry, but the adhesive still worked, and no bubbles could be seen.

Mark.

have them send you all the samples, also ask them for a sample of WIDE POWER. similar to high power but 45degree angle and 2.2gain.

Tape adhesive side up: no perceivable effect. Some theory confirmation.

Mark.

Holy smokes Batgirls,,,

I go out for a few coffeesss and a following Tsunami,,

and I have to read four thousands, words

Had 3M on da phone asking if I wanted a 1% share of their sudden increase in tape sales hehehheheheheh

BUT PLEASE, NO ONE SHOULD PEEL THEIR PANELS

this is an addition only technique

Mikau,, please take note... dont peel your panel.. not ready for it yet,,,

only one person has already done it,, due to damage to surface,, he will be the first to use full polarizer,,, :Mastermind:


clive.....

The wet technique should work for polarizers too... If it is decided that getting the adhesive type is best. Cooling might be improved if the polarizer remained in direct contact.

As to the tape method... Next we have to source the tape in wide rolls... I haven't found the photo tape from 3M in anything wider than 3/4".

However I do know that signmakers use very wide tape. Here is a low tack clear tape in custom widths. Probably many of us would be able to get a piece from our local old school sign maker. The digital guy's might not even know what you are talking about.

http://www.signsupplystore.com/ProductCart...3&idproduct=761

Or maybe the adhesive backed clear vinyl would be better... You can get a 12" x 10yd. roll for $8.

3M also makes sign vinyl.

I read that they sometimes use a vacuum for commercial application. Wet technique would be more DIYeable I agree.FWIW: That tape is apparently 3.8 mm thick.

mikyd: What are the odds of getting you to dunk that PS1 screen into your projector, such that we can perform the tests established throughout this thread? The main combination is having part everything but cleaned up polarizers removed, and another part untouched original panel. It sounds to me like you've already separated one polarizer. If there is an anti glare and compensation films in those screens then it sounds like a good test candidate. Why did it not work as a projector panel? Can you give any details on the removal process you chose, and what layers you have found. See if you can account for every layer in the diagram on page 3 of this thread.

Elken: Do you feel the polarizers could be salvaged and cleaned up (adhesive removed) from old panels? You could presumably just clean the adhesive off 2 rear polarizers (one being the one you already have).

Thanks,
Mark.

Huh? . I need a translation on this one. Who? You? Damage? Wha--? .

Mark.

My brother used to do window tinting and he used to spray something on the window and slide the film into place before the glue on the film stuck to the window. There might some benefit of using this type of procedure to put a glue backed polarizer on the lcd screen. I know he used a small squeege to remove any bubbles while it was still wet under the film.

Soapy water with a mister bottle is what they usually use.

I tried clear packing tape on my Liquidvideo and there was no visible improvement. Perhaps the wrong tape or the wrong panel. My antiglare surface doesn't look too textured.

The tape method will certainly be a huge benefit to many, however, I am still most interested in the polarizer replacement.

Even at a very steep viewing angle? This is peculiar as the difference is quite noticeable. I'm sure you got this right, but you have to get the tape to stick right up against the panel. There are some displays that have no anti-glare, but even if you have a little, at a steep viewing angle one would think there should be at least some visible difference.

Mark.

Well as usual Mark you have shown an amazing grasp of the optics involved in this phenomena.

At an extremely steep angle (a few degrees from parallel to the screen) I percieve what looks to be maybe 10% increase in brightness and clarity... so the theory still holds... but my panel will not benefit from this as there is zero difference that I see with a shallower angle.

Thanks .I would think that the fact that your panel has shown an improvement at any angle, that there very well could be an improvement on projection. If your panel improves here, and the theory holds up, then there must be anti-glare rippling on your panel. Consider this only a test to see if you have the ripples. I can say, if the refraction theory is solid, that there will always be undesirable refraction so long as you have ripples. Maybe not as much as others, but there must be some.

As you say, it is also fortunate that this is just one element we hope to improve.

Mark.

Windex or several drops of dish washing liquid in a glass of diluted water.

Distilled water?

Sounds like the small amount of soap is used to break the surface tension of the water so it doesn't bead up, but rather sheets across the whole film.

Mark.

new Guy,, seperate post name Mastermind,,, he did it,, ouchhhhhh
not connected to our tests

when I tested mine I had to rub the tape on with my fingernails before I saw the difference, at first when I just gingerly put the tape on I didn't see much difference on....though maybe your lack of antiglare may expolain why some people report brightness problems while others seem very happy with their brightness
another point I noticed was that after I removed the film from half the front of the lcd the panel was basically just slightly tinted glass the rear polarizer seemed not to affect light transmissivity very much compared to the front one....

removing the polarizer was fairly easyonce I figured out you have to start from a corner tried to razor a line down the middle of the screen at first and start from there(no, I have no idea why I thought THAT would work;-) then tried Playing" with a corner with the xacto and it pulled up pretty easy...very slowly but as long as I went slow it went ok..ps the lcd was on at the time so I could see what was happening) and yes, the ps1 definitely has an antiglare coating, as far as I know its a sharp lcd, just like all lcds except lower resolution...didn't work out as a pj because it has some weird outlining of people and objects going on but before I stripped it I had watched a dvd on it and it had a decent picture ,low rez but decent... going down to take the back polarizer off then will see if just the front one works instead(replacing the back one with a piece of the front one) though it seemed thinner than the front polarizer when i looked at it last night

Finally made it too the end of this thread. It seemed like for a minute there that every time I refreshed the page two new posts would appear.
Here’s another suggestion, cellophane I believe is soluble in water so by wetting it, ala DeathRay style, you should be able to apply it with no bubbles.

DJ

well on that point I was wrong, it seems about the same thickness as the front one... again, as elken said you "tease" up a corner and then pull as parrallel to the screen as possible and it comes up easy and leaves the screen pretty clean too not gunky at all. Anyway.. I can confirm that the front polarizer worked as a replacement for the rear polarizer just fine , no discernible color changes or anything AND i held a piece of the front polarizer acouple of inches behind the screen and another piece a couple of inches in front of the screen and the image looked fine also! so yes, we can take both polarizers off and place them apart from the screen as far as I can tell barring something showing up when magnified by the pj...though I don't think there will be .... and no mark, my eyes are not sharp enough to discern any layers on the rear polarizer ;-)

so ... the polarizers come off cleanly , relatively easily(I'd be sweating on my pj lcd though ;-) AND can be used at a distance from the lcd..... and there doesn't seem to be any neccesary(non-polarizing) layers on the rear as opposed to the front... didn't notice any viewing angle issues but I didn't check that hard since the pjs shoot head on anyway ...
in conclusion I think with all the experiments done the last week or so by everyone I'd say yes, polarizers come off and replace with possibly higher quality ones, though honestly I think that the "rear" one probably could stay on unless we find a more efficient polarizer or you have severe heat problems... and as a simpler(and less scary;-) option some form of plastic can be adhered to the anti-glare side

well, I don't have any polarizers laying around ;-) plus I have a couple of guys bringing their wives over to show them the pj so they can talk them into it ;-) don't want to take any chances with screwing the pj up! especially since one of them has been wood working for his whole life and can help me give my box the "WAF" it needs ;-)

heheheheh
and so the journey continues.....

as Jean Picard would say.... "make it so"......


Hey Dazzzla,, the prawns all ran away,,,

they could see the screen,, got scared and ran,,, or was the tape that scared them,,, hmmmmmm

Ok,, ten hours till I do major testing,,, with additional info thanx to deathray..
now have technique to apply plyable film to LCD panel..

Oh out of interest I applied tape to opposite of test rig and found it increased tramission even more,,, MIND YOU,, this Laptop panel has rear surface also slightly antiglare like...

my main 17" Benq,, rear surface is shiny,,, be curious to know which panels are and arent shiny on rear surface,,, so if anyone would,,,, get model and details of LCD and build a list Place these in my thread,, which I hope will become pure technical info,,, so most dont have to go searching, thru hunreds of posts,,

thread is called LCD Enhancments

Clive....

sounds like a good idea....
anyway some thoughts and ?s .... do you notice any more screen door effect than normal? the pictures look great, does the detail seem to be better?.... no sign of hotspotting I can see....
at the very least this should put an end to any heat problems(moving the polarizers off of the lcd) in fact since the main purpose of the cooling system is to keep the lcd cool, depending on the heat capacity of the polarizers it may be possible to use smaller , quieter fan and that mostly to keep the light bulb from setting the box on fire ;-)
which also means we could use a higher wattage bulb, assuming we could fit the larger arc into the triplet... and in another thread someone mentioned an anmorphic pre-condenser which might "squish" the larger arc into the triplet? anyone hear of sometihng like that?
also I'm thinking that if you use a sliding box in a box focus mech, that would be an excellent place to mount the front polarizer....

dammmmmmmmmmmmm


bugger ten hours,,,,, is under way now,,,,

lappy pappy dappy happy is in the dunk position

and she better be a lady......

and (warning:totally off topic) wouldn't it be cool to take the front polarizer off of an lcd monitor and get some polarizing sunglasses? you probably would have to hold your head pretty steady but you could have a picture on the lcd and no-one but you could see it..hey.... if I took a modified laptop into work.... ;-)

OK another minor Warning....


the sticky tape idea is only an experiment of proof of concept..

But do not leave for extended periods,,, no really bad, just that the sticky stuff will stay on panel,,,

removal with care,, so as not to scratch surface.. by tacking it off with fresh tape..

or rolling it off with fresh tape

had a piece in my PJ for few days,, had bonded quite well, ( bubbles included )

antigalre is fairly durable

BUT DONT MARK SURFACE with a hard object...

Please be careful,, dont be BRASH.....

Clive............