What does "Polar Bear" refer too? Never mind... it means polarizer

Fulcrum

the ASUS LCD came in today. Its beautiful.. shiny as a diamond. I hooked it up briefly to check for dead pixels and everything was fine. picture looked awesome, but I have nothing to compare it against. just so you know, it has the worst stand design I have ever seen. One little screw to hold the 10lb monitor on the base, which quickly stripped the threads in the base making the whole setup practically unusable. good thing I'm tearing it apart or I would be super pissed. unfortunately, I'm waiting on a bunch of stuff from LL so it will be awhile before I can test the LCD.

I am using a Benq 567s V2 and I stripped both the front and back polarizers. I started at the corner of each polarizer with my fingernail and slowly peeled them off. I found a new source of polarizers at http://boldervision.com/. They offer an Ultra High Contrast Polarizer here: http://boldervision.com/large_view/visUHC_data.html. It's got pretty good specs(8,000:1 nominal contrast ratio, see the link to see the full range). They charged me $100 for one sheet that was able to yield two polarizer sheets cut at 45 degrees. The total sheet size was similar to others mentioned here at about 620mm x 500mm. I drove down to their place because they are local. The polarizer sheet was flat with no antiglare and no adhesive(it did have a protective film on each side that needed to be peeled off). I asked them if I needed to keep the same angle on the new polarizers as the old and they said that I did need to follow the original registration lines. So I decided to stay with polarizers cut to 45 degrees. Based on the orientation of the old polarizers I had to place the new ones in so that if you placed them on top of one another they would be dark(instead of transparent). So, in that orientation I placed the LCD between them. The polarizer is light tan/brown in color, similar to the ones I removed but the new one looks lighter/clearer. After firing up the projector I did see some dark splotches on the top part of my image but I think that is from some waviness in the polarizers because of how I attached(read: taped) them to my LCD frame. Boldervision did suggest that I place the polarizers directly against the LCD for the best performance. I will probably do that when I have more time. Those splotches are not showing in my displayed area right now because I rigged my panel to display an image only on the bottom half of the panel(top of the projector). You can do this with software that can change what are called your "porch" settings. When I fire up my projector light spills way over the top of my screen but when the LCD is recognized by the computer it shows the desktop only on the screen. I am also using Parkland Plastics Plas-TEX wall panel for my screen. I decided to change both polars because my theory is GIGO(garbage in-garbage out). It doesn't make sense to me to change only one polarizer with a high contrast sheet if the last one the image goes through is crap. If you're gonna do it-go ALL THE WAY.

My results are similar to what others have mentioned here. Clearer, sharper, and definitely better colors. The blacks are blacker and the colors richer and the whites whiter. You must do a recalibration of your color profile so your colors are accurate again. I'm a mac guy so I used SuperCal from http://www.bergdesign.com/supercal/ to get a good calibration(Colorsync couldn't handle it). SuperCal is a good program because it differentiates between different display types, including projectors. It also assumes that your display is completely out of spec and needs to be thoroughly recalibrated. I've thought about it for a day now and the only way I can describe the difference is before replacement it's like watching something shot with digital video and after like watching something shot with film. Talk to anyone in the film industry and they will extol the virtues of shooting on film. Everything in the digital realm is trying to duplicate film(e.g. look at what the DVX100 from Panasonic is trying to achieve, look for CineGamma) At first the difference seems subtle, but the more I watched the more the depth of picture amazed me. I now watch with the sensation that I'm in a real theater. I liken the difference to drinking a nice fruity chardonnay to a fine red cabernet sauvignon. Before I changed the polarizers it looked good and I was happy with it(like an average chardonnay). It tasted fruity and fun in the moment but had no lasting power. With the new polarizers it has this new deep texture that the more I watch the more I find to appreciate and taste. The flavor lasts into the next day and I can still see the colors and texture in my memory. It is truly viewing pleasure and I can't wait to watch more movies. I am VERY happy with the results and it was worth the stress of the process.
Even if changing the second polarizer gives minimal improvement over swapping only one I feel it is worth it for the sense of completion. I finally feel I am done... for the time being

I will try to post pictures within a couple of days although I doubt they will do it justice.

Also, THANK YOU to everyone for posting their processes and ideas on polarizer/antiglare removal. I wouldn't have even thought of this on my own nor attempted it before seeing it done here.

Buddy, on behalf of the Antiglare Crew, your welcome. And thank you for sharing your experience using higher grade polarizers. Looking forward to your screenies.
sim

OK, here are some screenshots I promised. Enjoy.
http://web.mac.com/b_jamieson/iWeb/Site/Library.html

You guys are absolutely nuts!!! But i gotta love the ingenuity, and the fact you don't mind destroying the hell outta stuff for fun

I read through bits of this, skipped through lots and then found SIMUL8R's compressed version. I've been asking on the BMW forums about getting rid of the scratches on the anti-glare coating of my in-car sat nav screen. It's particularly bad when it's very sunny, and I have a convertible so with the roof down I can only see scratches on my screen!!!

So far nobody has come come up with any suggestions!!! Well, apart from buy a new screen

Seems to me that it's a similar problem to what you guys faced! I've bought some Peek Polish and gonna rid the nav unit out the car hopefully this weekend, and if all goes well I'll post some before and after pics up. I was thinking about putting an anti-glare film on, something like so Kensington Easy-on Film Protector. What you guys reckon? Or just leave it bare and polished?

But gotta say hats off to you guys, keep up the good work.


Kam

jammykam, on behalf of the crew your welcome. With regards to your nav screen, I'd say hit the problem the most easiest way possible and if it doesn't solve it then move to the next stage. If you'd like try the encapsulation idea just to see if polishing is the quick fix. Place clear tape (packing tape) on the affected area which is similarly done like tinting a window, i.e. slighty soapy water (Windex) and squeegy. Heck, if the screen is small you might get away with just taping, this may add more protection to the face. There after you if you decide then use Mother's Mag Polish or Peak Polish. Remove and replace polarizer is the last resort.

good luck.

Thanks for the suggestion SIMUL8R, I'll give the tape a try first then. It's only a 6inch screen, so like you suggest, the tape alone may well be enough. Definetely worth a try before hitting it with the polish.

I'll let you know how i get on.

Kam.

New to this site and just wondered what is the best 15" lcd monitor/tv to buy to do one of these projects. I am worried about the short wire issues. I have read hours and hours of posts on this site, but each time I seem to find a monitor that looks perfect I find out they don't make it anymore.

I have seen some monitors like WalMarts IAI 15" that are 16ms and 500:1 contrast for only $120 but cant find anything on it for quality or stripability. I don't mind paying more if the "perfect" monitor is out there.

As far a descalers or line doublers are concerned, would it be better to use an LCD TV monitor?? I looked at a few and some of them run 25ms on response time. One would think that a TV would run lower response times??

When removing anti glare from the LCD do you just use a rag/paper towel with normal tap water to soak off the anti glare film?? or is distiled water better/safer??

I am chomping at the bit wanting to order my kit from LL, but I did want to buy the LCD and strip it to make sure I can use the kit.

Any ideas??

SCHMIE

If I were you, I'd check the compatible monitors list either here or there's a french list
which has selections ("Oui" under "depor." means usable [sometimes with FFC extensions,
check the comments on each monitor]), which make it easier to look around eBay and
Froogle. Find the LCDs that are the price you want, then try to check it on either list.

Sometimes the forum users post it and it's hard to find, so you can also search with
Google like this:

[monitor manufacturer and type] site:www.lumenlab.com

Try it a few different ways since Google looks for EXACT words with that sort of thing,
like if there's a "Dell 1502FP", then try that as well as "Dell 1502", "Dell FP1502", etc.

And if you can't find it in either place, you can generally google search it (very tough),
or take the leap and try it. If it doesn't work, be very careful and put it back together
and sell it, which is what I did.

And it seems with AG removal, there are different methods for different screens. Just
try to find someone that's done the panel you select and copy their method, unless you
feel adventurous.

I just found an okay deal on a 14" XGA (1024x768) monitor that should work, so if you
want you can keep an eye on my second plog (the "new projector" link in my signature).
If it works, you can just order the same one for ~$115-130... It got shipped today so I
think I'll get it around Wednesday.

Hope that helps, if not... sorry. If so, glad I could help.

Thanks for the info. I will check into a few on the site. I checked the Lumen Lab official list and they had only two 15" lcds listed and both are out of production.

I will keep searching.

Schmie

Browsed through this and the index. Couldn't find my answer.

Did it make a difference if the AG was on the lamp or triplet side (strait and folded configurations)?

EDIT:

I've been thinking...

I remember reading of some dude getting the sammy and lg accidently from screenteck, both screens worked with the G2A, but he couldn't get 1920*xxxx to work on them, then he got the sharp and it still didnt work, turned out to be his video card.

we could assume the sammy and lg would work at full 1920X1080 and 1920x1600 with the G2A.

Now what if stripping the AG off the sammy and lg were super easy, like a 5 hour water rag soak and 45 seconds to pull the AG off (like it was on my synaps, that i broke taking the frame off).

im temped to buy a sammy wuxga off ebay to find out, since im having a hard time finding a sharp. hmmm, hmmmm. what to do.

thoughts?

My Samsung 17 lcd panel came as a kit with no backlight or frame just the bare panel, electronics and cables. I just removed the AG off one side with I think was the light side. With 3 hours of paper soak came off easy. I still have a AG layer on the other side witch I think is the viewing side. After 8 hours of paper soak I managed to peal about 1/4 of it with some resistance.
I am now gonna soak it for another 8 hours.

In my opinion it will peal its just a question of how much soaking. 24 hours, 48 hours? Am I wrong assuming this? Can I soak it too much that the Polarizer will come off together?

Nope. In fact we concluded with little doubt that it is safer to soak for a long time then for too little time. In fact, over several days of soaking we couldn't get any notable damage to ensue on a couple test panels. However, those tests were done only with pure water. I am noticing some people have started mixing in acetone with their water -which would with little doubt damage the polarizer if left too long.

Seems most people are waiting the absolute minimum time. We used to suggest a 10 hour soak with water as a general safe time that most panels can blanket under. But if you know it will work with less time then that would be fine too. Some panels may even need more than 10 hours. It really comes down to not forcing anything.

Mark

So I have some theoretical suggestion: can it be used a SMALL polarizer near projection lens and totaly removing polarizer and antiglare of the lcd panel ?

No. You have polarizing sheets on either side of the lcd.

DO do I need to bother with this antiglare and polarizer issue : for example: using LG 1752 model

How great is this improvement ?

It seems to risky: and it is difficult to obtain new polarizer and "stick" it to panel:


So what about this: if we remove polarizer from LCD : and put polarizer on BOTH fresnels before and after LCD panel: could it work ?

Helou!
First time on this very "only superlatives" site.
So, I have this Fujitsu Siemens LCD-TFT display B15-1 which includes 15'' Philips display.
And my "acadamy award" question is, on which side is AG?
By my very professional opinion is on the side which we're looking at! T or F?
Thank you and after your ASAP reply I'll do it with Pamela Anderson's wet T-shirt.
Cao, Kristofer from Slovenia (ex Yugoslavia).

BTW, I'm creating LCD projector of an OH projector with some huge modifications.

the side that isnt mirrored... Or glaring off of everything

im actually stripping the AG off a LCD monitor jsut to see if it will vastly improve direct viewing
i got so many ones with ded lines i could sacrafice one. I do knowthat the polarizer does scratch
easly so ill also be looking for somthin to hard coat it with if i do it to a real montor..

just striped hanns-g hw191d no fcc issues and dose the ag water soak in about 2 1/2 hours. it came off easly.

Hi I am using benq FP557s, I’ve moved the polarisation film and the screen is gone so bright I cant hardly see anything, you said on your post to move the back Fresnel away from the lcd by 1/8” is that 4mm do I also have to move the tempered glass back because there don’t seem to be much space left between the tempered glass and the back Fresnel please help I will really appreciate your help thanks
raihenkhan@hotmail.com

hi everybody is talking about removing the antiglare can somebody please, give some advice about what distance ( IN mm) should we move the back Fresnel form the lcd and do we also have to move the tempered glass and the lamp thanks

You may have removed the entire polarizer along with the AG. Is the film you removed kinda tinted almost dark purplish or is it dull and clear, almost see thru? If it's tinted then thats the entire AG and polar film that you removed. If it's just dull and kinda clear then thats just the AG. The polar should remain on the lcd and the AG is what should have come off only.

I stripped my monitor's AG, and now it displays a black image before turning off. Any hope of fixing it?

Sounds like you messed up the ffc's or got fried the controller board somehow.

Probably can't be fixed. Sorry.

Fixed it

Don't ask me how, but it just started working. Lucky me!

Congrats

So does this anti-glare removal enhance direct viewing as well? I have a 15"er that I want to modify, and eventually put into a projector. I think I've seen monitors without AG advertised as having better PQ.
kakureru, did you ever try AG removal for direct viewing? and did you find a way to hard coat it?

Thanks,
Chris

For those that removed the entire polarizer layer off the lcd, i came accross this site that sells the polarizer for lcd screens at cheper price than what i have seen. i'm going to order a sheet for mine, yup you guess it !!!


Size: 276mm x 344mm
Optical type: Transmissive
Transmittance: single(42.5%) ; parallel(36%) ; crossed(0.05%)
Color: neutral gray
Polarizing efficiency: 99.72%
Absorption axis: 45º
Wavelength: 400~700nm
UV protection: Yes
Wide viewing angle: Yes
Adhesive force: >100g/25mm
Thickness: 0.22mm
Direction: linear
Durability: 60ºC / 90%RH / 750Hours test passed
Adhesive glue: one side
Protective film: both sides


LCD Polarizer

Have others found that the original arrangement has to be respected? I have a Sharp 15.4" WUXGA with the back polarizer removed. I tried a 3dlens polarizer (with adhesive) glued to the fresnel and the blacks where bad and uneven - though brightness all aroud increased as measured with a lux meter.

I have now bought the SHC polarizer from Polarization.com and asked them to cut it at 90 degrees to save on shipping to Hong Kong. I have tested the panel and found out the LCD polarizer is at 45 degrees with the way the film was cut - the colors do look better though.

The question is whether is enough to have the polarizers set at 90 degrees to each other ( by removing the existing front polarizer and replacing it) or they need to fit to an specific angle defined by the LCD (in which case I just wasted 75 bucks +S&H )

ok so i started reading this thread and i have a corner with no ag\polarizer (went a lil rough on the ag removal but stopped) and im thinking i should remove it and replace with a 17" polarizer from 3Dlens, my question is, while removing the polars from the ag-side of the tft, should i strip it down to the glass or is there some layers that still need to be on there?..

No, down to the glass substrate.

SIMUL8R i tried, i promise, to read the whole post, but it's ...you know... a little bit long.... :D
So my quest: is there somwhere some pics of before and after changing polarizers? And it' won't be bad also some luxmeter confirmation!
I have to decide if go trough this issue will satisfy or not....

thanks again for this intresting and useful thread!

I want to suggest one simple test to see whether the antiglare coating really blocks light? This is what we want to know, right? Step1 use a plain glass or a transparency with some letters on it and use it in place of lcd, see the result.
Step2 Connect the LCD to a computer and place the lcd in projector. Open notepad in fullscreen and type something and se the results

Compare these two images how much light is blocked by lcd assembly including both polarizers, tft, and antiglare coat? Does this make sense?
This is my mockup idea to test this. I am not giving away any solution.
Peterson

Well that won't solve anything with regard the Antiglare. All that will tell you is how much light the entire panel blocks. You would still have to remove the antiglare after that test and test again to get a result. We already know the polarizers block anywhere from 90-95% of the light. And the antiglare only blocks about 1% of the light but it also diffuses it some so that not all of the light hits the triplet. Removing the Ag improves this allowing for more brightness and better colors/clarity.

I Removed the antiglear and the polorizor as well poor me wanted to remove only the anti glear but i had to throw away a 17 inch LG 1600 TO 1 RESPONCE TIME 6milisec because of this antiglear thiory

I hope you have not thrown the panel away yet. . . You can easly get a new polar. I replaced mine with great success!

I cant believe what a difference the removal of antiglare does. Only difficulty im having with mine is that ive removed about 3/4 of the AG but theres this really stubborn corner of the stuff refusing to budge. The rest of it came off so easily so why is this so glued on. Hopefully overnight it will loosen up.

Also there are 2 polarisers correct? One on both sides? Or is this some other AG layer (doesnt look like it though, its shiny).

Don't Throw your LCDs away just because you pulled off the crappy polarizers. It's an opportunity to replace them with higher quality polarizers with better contrast and color. I pull the polars off of all my lcds.

Rather than throw them away, send them to me...

That's kind of a misleading statement.

I don't think it's really been proven that replacing polarizers will improve color/contrast.

The only real thing that has been proven is that it is a pain to get everyhting aligned after polarizer removal, it cost a lot, and it reduces lumens significantly.

jonjan, I respect your opinion here. This is anecdotal and empirical data. ie, and opinion. I am just relating my experience. I haven't been *here* very long, but I have been working with optics my entire life. I use LCDs in high speed photography.

Hard to align once removed? Not really, I have it so I can rotate the triplet side of the polarizer to tune it perfectly. I don't put the polars back on the LCD. They just have to be in the light path, and planar with the LCD panel.

As far as lumen reduction, you get what you pay for. Photographic quality polarizers are much better than your average LCD polarizers. If anything the lumen output increases because I eliminate 2 transitions from the path. There is no glue on my panels. Correctly aligned polars allow you to use the full range of your LCD panel. If your polarizers are less efficient, you lose bottom and top and are less granular across the range. Thats why most controllers, by default, start above zero and end below 255 on the 8 (or 6) bit range of each color channel. The range below and above is just not usable. You usually must find a hidden menu to change it to drive the entire range.

Some polarizers on some LCDs are better than others. Sometimes you can get improvement, sometimes not. But don't throw away your LCDs just because they don't have polarizers. ( send them to me! :-) )

It's hard to align for the average person is what I meant. I base that on the fact that there have been so many threads where people are having a lot of problems getting it to look right after polar replacement.

As for as lumens, you are not taking out two transitions but you really are adding two. With the polars on the lcd glass you will get less light reflections than if the polars are separated from the lcd glass. So lumens will decrease. Several members have measured lumens after polar replacements and even with the high dollar polars lumens decreased between 10-20% and more.

Heres one test with Shc polars by sinner7, others have tested but it takes a bit of searching to find them.
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=210305

Also like I mentioned polar replacements have been costing around $75 for most people, so a lot of the times it's easier to replace the panel than try a polar replacement which really is an extreme mod and most members aren't qualified to do

Just discussing this with you, not trying to argue. Feel free to correct anything I'm not right about. It happens quite often

Yeah, friendly discussion here...

I have read that thread, and I saw his results. He achieved a good contrast ratio at the expense of overall output. He showed a large decrease in output that I have to say I am not seeing but I don't have hard numbers to back that up.

Now you have me curious, I have to go back and use the same measurement procedure detailed in the post.

I am using a split design, 400 watt lamp with reflector, pro lens set. Straight through box. I have another samsung with reflective removed, and antiglare polished, stock polars. I can probably come close to reproducing his test, and I can include the 3dlens and polarization films.

I have hundreds of pix, and I plan on posting a plog when I get my haas in gear. (haha, projector humor. Is that how it's pronounced?). I also have pix of the adhesive removal procedure for those that want that. I want to post all at once for those that need instant gratification.

I still think that not having to go through adhesive is actually helping. At any boundary the light will have some reflection loss if the index of refraction is different between the two substances. Ever make a glass disappear in a larger glass of glycerine?

Maybe the overall increase in dynamic range ( contrast ) is fooling me.

So many variables. Maybe I jiggled something.

I do know that the definition was greatly enhanced, the screen door is more pronounced. Very sharp. I will post results in my plog. Thanks, some more tinkering I can do!

The point is I guess is that all is not lost if you lose your stock polars.

I've been referencing these forums while building my projector and while I was removing the antiglare using Mark's Rag method I had an idea on how to do it without recharging it with water. If you just place some plastic wrap over the LCD then the water won't evaporate. It's just a tip to make the proccess easier for some people. (Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this but I tried to create a new thread for it and new user's can't)

Edit: Thought I should not that (not sure how this worked) but after this I had no liquid left on the polorizer. The antiglare was wet but there was no glue or anything left on the actual LCD. I also forgot to note what LCD. It was a HPvs15. I don't think they make it anymore but this works if anybody has one. And finally It does look fantastic. Best decision I've made since deciding to build the projector in the first place.

I've tried water soak method with Acer 15" AL1516 model. After 14 hrs soaking the antiglare don't come off. The polariser also started coming out from one corner. So I had stopped immediately. Next tried paint stripper method. Tried on a small portion only. After 20 minutes the surface started bulging and I tried to remove the ag with squgee. But it didn't come off. I saw few patches in the area which shows in the bright area of the projection. But in 16:9 video it is not visible. So what method can be used to such a panel. It is easy to strip. But antiglare is the problem. Anyone used that panel or similar panel from Acer?

Hi there, I've been reading through this thread now (puuh)!

I have been planing on doing the paint stripper method on my TFT (Samsung Syncmaster 740B). I tried the soaking method but it didn't work. The problem is, KS-3 Stripper doesn't seem to be available in Europe or atleast I can't find anyone who is selling it. So I took a trip to the local paint shops and checked around for paint strippers. I found a whole bunch of them but I also found one common thing with them all and that is N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone which is the main ingredient for them all. Now according to marks list of substances which dissolves the PVA N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone is one of them and that brings me a whole lot of trouble. So my questions is: Is there someone in Europe (or perhaps Sweden) who have succeeded in finding a good paint stripper?

// Jonathan

I don't claim to know everything in these forums by a long shot but is there precedent for a Samsung Syncmaster NOT being strippable by the water soak method (prolly is)? That's really too bad you gotta go the stripper route.

I've tried the soaking method 2 times now with failed results, I can see in the edge of the screen that the polarizer and antiglare won't separate.
I also found out today that the main ingredience in KS-3 Stripper (Methylene Chloride) is not allowed in paint strippers or for industrial use in Sweden since 1995. Is there any other substance one might try to use on the AG? What material does the AG consist of?

jontew, read on this info here it's quite lengthy but if you do a cached for toluene, xylene it might help.

Another way would be polishing the AG down to a smooth finish with plastic polishing compound like 'Mother's Mag Polish', 'Mother's Billet Polish', 'Peak'. Not the same as total AG removal but there is some benefit.

Thanks for the info SIMUL8R. Although I really don't know how to proceed from here, feels like I am totally stuck...bah!