Just read back through the last few pages. Mark posted on the 2 best paint strippers to use. And there are some instructions for stripping.

This can't be stressed enough: READ THE ENTIRE THREAD TO UNDERSTAND THIS PROCESS.

It really is worth the hour or two to read the thread so you will understand everything.

Thanks. I just want to clarify that the sanding was probably not at fault. It was inadequate if anything because my setup kept sliding around. Since I was sandng in a circular pattern and the scratch was straight, I think it's more likely the plastic scraper was at fault (but this also may be related to the way the LCD was supported, there was some flex in the panel allowing the edge of the scraper to dig in).

Paul, if you really must use the Stripper method then you can use Jasco paint expoxy remover and Klean Stripper S3:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...ic=7882&st=1281 Please be sure that you have read the process that is envolved and especially the past couple of pages from here concerning the sanding part. Don't dig deep while sanding, lightly but with several passes and small circles.
sim

Ah, I see...Paul take blackmichael's advise here too. Plastic putty knifes may not have straight flat edge when they were molded by the manufacturers. It would be best to look for one that has no protruding or indented edges. When and during the scraping the first batch of the application make sure that the edge of the knife is still uniform and flat, if not then sand it down to get a clean edge again. A flat table with paper towels underneath making sure you don't let the stripper run over to the other TAC. If it does, then immediately wipe with alcohol otherwise if this TAC is affected then you might have to remove this as well.
sim

pepe was trying to antaganize the LL members in hopes that we would reveal information to help his crappy projection. Oh well if he doesn't think the information is worth $20 then that is his loss.

lol... I didn't even read the entire thread before I stripped mine. My eyes started losing focus

Seriously though -- maybe it's time someone wrote a FAQ topic for this subject (basic theory, technique, common products used, benefits, dangers). It would certainly free up this topic for more advanced discussion.

Regarding my front TAC removal: I think my main gain was additional sharpness, maybe a little color and contrast, too. At this point, any image degredation is due to poorly aligned optics and ffdshow settings (and camera settings for pics). I'm very happy with this mod!

Thanks Jon, Black and Sim.

Its almost been 12 hours. What is your status?

They have a name for folks like that in newsgroups...

I dont think you will ever be able to really convince him that he needs to join the group because he gets too much attention by holding out. I am beginning to think that somehwere in his mind he thinks that if he argues long enough, you will present the solutions and all plans to him or give him a free membership...

Then you will never hear the end of it.

But...
Sometimes its not the noble quest for the truth that drives these things forward.
Sometimes you just wanna stick it their face and make them see they are wrong!

You guys are doing valid and meaningful work. Dont let someone else's poor sense of self take that away from you.


SJ

The AG is still completely stuck to the polar. Inseparable. Wants to just chip little bits at a time, not peel. Tried tapeing the edges to no avail; I can't really get inbetween the AG and polar. The powerful tape pull didn't do anything, either. I basically just end up pushing the AG and it will chip off. Not enough time yet?

Dweez, good suggestion. I'll create one for my method and hopefully everyone will realize to refer to the first page if it turns out to be another long discussion board like this one.

Ah, so you do also see what I'm seeing. Hopefully, if others do take this route may further confirm what you and I observed. However, your right. Not a dramatic difference compared to actual a/g removal but every little gain gives you more of a comfortable feeling well deserved.

I'm glad that your enjoying it, bet you can't wait to show it off too. I did and man were others impressed.
sim

Hiya SJ:
True, but before Brainchild edited the thread and closed it out pepe had linked his post @DIYAudio warning others there that the mod was worthless. Which is sad cause those who have built there pj's without LL's forum are probably going to miss out in this
For a person whose intentions (as he said) was to help and assist rather presented himself as to hurt and discourage.
sim

Hi!
I´m finishing my 2nd pj (folded) and I intend to use the same lcd model I used before, an LG1530s. I still remember battling agains the light bleeding problem that haunted the first one, with no luck. The bleeding was quite present high and low on the projected screen (little on the center too, almost unnoticed).
I dont know if the bleeding will get better after the process, or stay the same... or get worst!
Any opinions?

Not to re-open a deleted topic, but (as carefully as possible ) what was it that he said? Was it unfounded? If he was claiming that this is worthless, then that is strange because I have seen some of his posts, and don't feel he has anything near a poor grasp of the concepts.

Mark.

Rpearsey, Vroom, and Mikau,

When did you all buy your monitors? My guess is the manufacture date has something to do with this. Samsung could of changed their method of attaching the antiglare after a certain date.

ummm,,, after this no more comment,,, OT

he was saying we were basically faking, everything we have done..

he had even stated he had past imaging (medical field) experience, and that his histograms proved that we were faking it. he was too stubborn to pay 20 bucks for full access, wanted all the info,, for nothing..

having worked with 'histograms' yes you can do magic stuff with images to show all detail,, but he is missing the point that, sometimes to show what you have , you need to enhance for display,, he was taking too much of scientific approach, because in research you cant tamper with images, lest you contaminate the data,, he basically said the enhancements we were doing were worthless..

if you have other questions, just pm me,, better stay on topic here

February of 2005. Ironically enough, it was Vroom's plog which led me to buy this monitor after 2 unsuccessful attempts. I kinda feel bad about leading him astray with this.

December 18, 2004. The day that Best Buy had them on sale for $110.

Is it pulling up at all like the bubbled section before? Or just lousy little flakes that are more of a pulp than useful pieces?

How long has it been? There should be no harm in giving it longer. Just make sure the rag is always charged up with water.

But be careful.

Again, thanks for giving this another try.

We know that TAC is water permeable, but various anti-glare treatments may not be. Some anti-glare treatments also have a very thin anti-scratch sheet laminated overtop of the anti-glare. Further, there is some speculation that the TAC can be polycarbonate. That is actually pretty unlikely the more I look into it. And the glue that bonds each of these layers may not always be water soluble at room temperature. I'm not sure if we will ever know for sure what is to blame. But I hope we can.

Mark.

Nope. Before with the bubbled section I still couldn't get a corner to come up very well, but that may have been because I didn't go all the way to the edge. I was maybe 2mm off I would say. I'll keep the wet rags on constantly.

Like less than 1% difference in transmittancy if mod was perfomed, very risky and not worth the value of an expensive panel. Also that his version of 'Towel method' worked better than a 'Rag method'. Nice, huh?
sim

Dergin, to be honest, and it's a hunch, it might have something to do with how long our monitors have been baking in front of our lamps that affects the adhesives (hunch only). Plus the grade of the antiglare such as 3H and 2H and how they were laminated etc...
sim

What a champ . I thought about adapting a Towel technique . But now I'm working on a Paint Remover method .

Mark.

Really, dang....guess you'd be surprise then on what I'm shooting for. It's the WATER STRIPPER METHOD using fabreeze...hehehehhehe
sim

I really want to use the rag soak method on my cmv 520d. I've read most of the problems that people have been having with the 520d, and I can't find anything that states absolutely that the rag soak method won't work on this panel. I've seen others with similar panels(gregeast 529A, Dr Lazy CMV 720d, tmproff 529A) that have had success, so I'm thinking that it should work. Has anyone gottent this method to work on a 520d? It seems that I can try it, if it doesn't seperate, then no harm done right? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Surprisingly, I don't think it has ever been done. But that polarizer has been shown to take to water in rough tests.

As long as you don't force it to seperate and at least follow these instructions, then it seems no harm can be done:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...indpost&p=99632

Mark.

Thanks Mark, I'm going to give it a try and hope for the best.

I've put some pics in my plog. Not complete due to camera battery, but it shows some of the advantages to doing this.

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?a...=80#entry102994

Over 17 hours with the wet rags, the AG is just starting to cooperate! Needs a few more hours before it'll peel off cleanly, however. Will keep you guys updated. At this point I believe 512N dilemma has to do with how many hours you've run the LCD inside the PJ. For me, it's just about a year now at just about the max (~95*). This could also explain all the noobs coming in with their brand new panels and having no troubles with the wet rag technique.

A couple of the topics mentioned throughout this thread have now been given their own threads:

Light Recycler:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8765

Diffused Light Engine/Light Recycer:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8770

Optical Adhesives:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8759Hope things continue . If you are seeing improvement, then yeah, I would just wait VS pulling.

That is patience . It impresses me that you have given it that kind of a run. One thing though: if you do have water beeded right around the border of the polarizer, exposed to the edges, then with that kind of duration we don't know if it can take it. So make sure (hopefully it is not too late) that only a corner or two are getting the butt-up treatement, and even then just be precise if you can and not let it overhang. My worry is obviously that water will get under the PVA and then you will have a real hard time keeping that thing together, if not getting nasty grain effects.

The optical adhesives thread could be just the thing for getting that corner stuck down again (I've pretty much settled on watered down Elmer's Gel Glue):

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8759

edit and of course, tape reinforcement is a must even though you did not have good luck with it before.

Mark.

Noobs

Hehe. Not targeted at anyone in particular. Except maybe those with under 10 posts making me jealous with their results.

Okay, so the polar is getting some scratches in it because the AG isn't going any easier than before. Was there some way to fix small scrapes or scratches on the polar? Will they even be visible/in focus? If it's not fixable, I may as well just pull off the polar now.

So here are some pics of the damage on the polar. Worth continuing or just replace the polar?

i think manufacturer may have more to do with ease of ag removal than baking time.. my panel is pretty new as well ( < 40 hours in pj running ) and i also had a good amount of difficulty in getting the sheet off cleanly using the rag / towel method. total soak time was ~ 17hours when i finally started getting it off.. even then it didn't go quietly..

Success using rag soak method with the CMV 520d! I let soak for 4 hours and checked it. AG came off easily in one sheet. I'll post more details in the Methods & Research thread when I get it put back together. Thanks Mark!

You really had my hopes up. If it isn't going any better, then maybe pull the plug on that bugger. From what I can see those scratches really should show up on projection. The surface should look completely mirror smooth. But here is the thing. Are those definately scratches in the PVA, or is it a marred up glue layer? If it is glue, then stripper, or possibly another solvent could get you down to the shiny PVA. If a plastic scraper is okay with stipper, maybe you could try one with what you have to help get the rest off?

Hard to say what to do. The good news is that Polarizer replacement won't even be a compromise if the PVOH optical adhesive plan works out. But even removing the polarizer can be a bear with that panel. Mikau had time with it.

sawtooth_ktm: Great. Hope it projects well. That panel is a big one (though it's hard to get now).

Mark.

Hi, this is my first post.

I have been assembling a pj based on a Proview 15.4" PL576Ws LCD, 400w Ushio, 220mm fl fresnel, 550mm fl fresnel, and a beseler 18" fl opaque projector lens.

I got the thing assembled enough for testing last week and was sadly dissapointed with the brightness of the projected image. granted there wasn't a reflector but still. It was only bright enough to be enjoyably watchable @ the small end of my designed FL, about 6' diagonal WS. And yes I did have the arc set at or close to optimal with the optics.

Well, I stumbled across what you guys are doing here a few days ago and thought YES! Looked at my panel and realized that it may have a/g on BOTH sides :angry: I knew I had to do this to get the kind of results out of this thing that I want. So anyway, I decided to do the rag method, starting w/ the front side. It worked!!! I already had it mounted in a wood frame so I just left it in there and ragged it for about 7 hours. I didn't re-wet or check until 7 hrs b/c that was when I had time. It came off beautifully, no residue, in 3 pieces. I have no doubt that it would've came off in one peice if not for the frame.

I'm posting a pic of the LCD before the a/g removal. It shows the a/g on both sides of the panel. I'm going to rag the other side overnight tonight and try and remove the a/g on it in the morning. I'll let you know how it goes. I have to borrow a friends camera to take pics. Next time I get it I'll post after results.

So far so good for the rag soak and Proview 15.4" WS LCD's...

Click to view attachment

Looking at your pics, I see a few possible problems:

1. The paper towel should be in a few layers. That would prevent it from drying out completely the first time. Some people have added a seeling sheet on top to keep the water in.

2. It looks like there are quite a few bubbles. You want it to be as if water is pooled on the surface.

3. The rag should have a sheen from it's saturatedness. It should be just not dripping.

4. Reinfoceing the surface, or at least the edges with tape after the soak is a must. From what I have seen it keeps everything in one piece quite well.

Mark.

Decided to just remove the polar for replacement. It's turning out to be quite a process. I hope noone else has to go through this.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by reinforcing the surface/edges?

So I take it that also means that the antiglare will come up with the polarizer. At least you'll still see an improvement. I would go ahead and plug in the panel and use a flashlight to make sure that it still works. It seems that you've been quite agressive with the panel, and I'd hate to see you buy a polarizer for a panel that's beyond repair.

This has me scared now. I was all excited about taking my antiglare off, was thinking about doing it over thanksgiving, but now I am scared. I also bought my monitor in Febuary 2005 so hopefully if Samsung did change their antiglare and I might still have a chance.

The reason for my theory of Samsung changing the monitor is that Best Buy was out of the monitor for a while. I had to get a rain check for about 3 weeks. Then when I did get mine and strip it, I noticed that it stripped differently than Vroom's.

Mikau when did you buy your monitor?

thanks mark, i'll remember that for my next strip

Hi gents,

Just been googling polarizers and came up with this page:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:SZqQpun...polarizer&hl=en

This part caught my attention:



If I'm reading this right, the polymer film is the TAC+antiglare (???) which we are removing...
I dont think I have seen this mentioned before in this thread...
the "color unevenness or color deletion" thing does sound a bit scarey though

Im beginning to think that a long term use of the LCD might lead to a very dry adhesive layer, which may or may not make it more "receptive" to penetration from various solvents. It might be come part of the directions for some monitors that they need to be pre-baked ( pre-heated) to allow for a better strip.

I have been playing a lot with figures on optical adhesives and such. Would we happen to have two brave souls, who both have the same LCD who would be willing to experiment?

Hi MichealJ:
Good find, something to watch out for during the duration of this mod.

It was understood that we are touching into the design structure of how these panels operate and the polars themselves. Thats why this new discovery is mostly experimental. It's very obvious that the a/g is not what is needed in our application but then a computer LCD was not meant to be also in box with a 400watt bulb baking it either. The importance is that we are trying to I create a better mouse trap rather than buying one already made at a lesser cost while also enjoying the experience in the process. My other thread was created with hopes that those who attempt this mod would submit their experience and also post what ill effects occur thereafter then move on and try to correct it somehow. In any case the results, for now, from enhancing our panels outweighs the risks that may occur such as what you pointed out (in my opinion). Which only gives me another reason to build even a better mouse trap.
sim

I read this as a new invention, that our polarizers don't have in the first place. The key to the invention seems to be the thermoplastic mixed into the front TAC. Patents are funny because they always try to get as much current technology mixed in with the wording for their new tech. We have speculated as to what the long term effects of this may be. To it's credit: it doesn't seem like anything will go wrong . The rear adhesion and PVA are pretty tough stuff. It's your call.

The part that I found nice to read was just how PVA is prepared for adhesion. It is actually dipped in water at 30 degrees. The other thing was that amongst the 2 water soluble adhesives used, cross-linked PVA and cross-linked gelatin (I like Jello, and Nemo) are used most often. And again, water soluble are the words of day in this patent.

Mark.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I can't say I wish I hadn't attempted this, because there's no way I could be satisfied after seeing everyone else improvements. But I REALLY WISH I HADN'T ATTEMPTED THIS WITH THE 512N.

Sigh.
Polar didn't come in one piece and now there's a big chunk of AG/polar covering most of the screen away from the edges. No clean edge to try lifting from. Can I just stripper this all away? I'd be amazed if my LCD even works at this point.

i wouldn't be - these things seem to be finicky, no doubt, but then again, they are stronger than we think in other areas too. My SGI has been BEAT UP, BADLY by me, and it still works! Whew!
But, then again, YMMV..........

Ricoks

I think you may be just frustrated. You are very close to an enhanced panel even now. I think we are blowing things a bit out of context.

Polarizer replacement is how this all started. If my PVOH adhesive idea works, it isn't necessarily even a transmittance compromise.

And if you weren't too forceful with the other elements (the electronics, FFC's) then there is no reason why your panel should not work with a new polarizer.

If you choose to pull up anti-glare that is difficult, you are choosing to go against the recommendation. I really appreciate you giving this every possible chance, but I think you would agree that there were several opportunities to throw in the towel without any damage. The instructions are designed to leave people with a panel that is just fine if things don't work.

I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to peel off the polarizer? It is glued to glass, so you can even use a razor flat against the substrate glue to peel it up. It is possible to scratch the glass, but it is not particularly easy with a flat edge. And you now have the choice of virtually any non-acidic solvent.

Again, I really appreciate you pushing the limit to help validate the problems we have been having. But let's not make it sound like this is what unexpectedly happened, and is destined to happen at random times. The procedure I've posted is basically:

If you choose to try ragging, and it doesn't cause the anti-glare to release super easy in the non-projected masked area, then switch to stripper. No harm done.

Mark.

vroom: At this point in time if you want to try the stripper I'd be afraid what would happen to your polar (PVA). You had it under the rag for a very long duration and I'm not sure what sort of condition the PVA is right now if you introduce paint stripper to it. But seeing that your already planning on total removal and replacement then there is really nothing to loose if you want to try this route.. And I'm sensing that you do.

Therefore, if you really want to then I wouldn't sand at all, unless your that skillful (if you are, it would greatly help this process) to only sand the a/g area and not the PVA that is currently exposed. Just pour wait for 10 to 15 and try the scrape. By all means do not leave it on more than 15 mins cause I'm quite worried of the PVA's structure and if it is still intact and not greatly affected after the long rag method. And dont forget denatured alcohol before the smear hardens. I hope you read up on some of the past pages regarding all this.

Again, I dont see what you may loose from this since your going towards total removal anyways as long as you take the neccessary precautions.
sim