Yep. Scoring the PVA with razor will allow stripper and water to get in behind. Wether this is a problem with water, we have not yet tested, but for sure that would hoop the use of stripper later.

So let's go back to why you cannot remove the panel from the frame. You say a Printed Circuit Board and a ground wire is attached. Where does the ground wire come from? Ground? Or is the frame the ground?

How is the PCB attached? is there no way to lift the frame up even a small bit and have room to work underneath?

Any photos ?

edit just to clarify, the PVA will not bubble up, but it could have grain formation and loose it's bond to the rear TAC if it seeps in a score line. This has never been done, so it is hard to say if these will happen at all or not. They are theory right now. Some people did fine having let water seep in at the edge, but no definitive edge tests have been done. It does seem that water will travel very slowly across the glue layer, so this may be a lot of worry for nothing.

Mark.

Mark, I knew that would raise an eyebrow. But honestly, after seeing no difference after 12 hours of soaking when trying to peel up the AG with a razor throughout, I didn't see any point in being timid. There was no loss in control and the panel was not in danger. I realized that I could be out a polarizer, but I wouldn't consider that a great loss.

At this point, I still aim to try my luck with stripper. Only problem is I haven't been able to find the KleanStrip KS-3 yet. It seems that it's the only model the stores I've been to don't carry. Because of my chopped up polar edges, I plan to mask off the edges of the screen if the stripper is successful. Then I'll just lower the screen area settings of the LCD to compensate. If I get new polar, I won't need to do this.

Let's just hope that the LCD still works after all of this.

swoozle http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...indpost&p=99854 used Jasco Premium Paint & Epoxy Remover. Very potent stuff (believed to be a good thing ). Some have found it to be the only product that works for their anti-glare.

It also has the benefit of being the product that Sonic did his extreme exposure tests with, and the chemist at Jasco maintains is a fairly PVA safe product.

Mark.

Just like Klean Strip cause others have used it and succeeded, but really as long as it's the most potent of the brand. The Klean Strip I used was KS-3 Premium 15 minute and strongest: http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...ic=7882&st=1281 . Jasper is also a good brand but I would ask Sonic what type though. Others from DownUnder have used their version of stripper: see 'foe' http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...opic=8283&st=12 . You may be able to find the Klean Strip at Lowes, HomeDepo and/or Walmart.
sim

Do you mean Jasco? Sonic tested Jasco Premium Paint & Epoxy Remover http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_rem.htm

It too is a 5 - 15 minute product that is apparently powerful enough to simulate having done multiple coats with one application.

The Klean-Strip remover lineup: http://www.kleanstrip.com/removers.htm

Amongst Jasco and Klean-Strip, it seems to me that the best choices have been made. It would be nice to know which one is better. One thing I can say is that the Jasco brand has been through the basic exposure testing, has the backing of one of their chemists, and is apparently water rinsable. Is KS-3 water rinsable?

Mark.

Hi mark,,, yeah been kinda here and there,, been to hell and back with other issues,,,

but had a thought just breezing very roughly over missed posts


but what about additives to your water soak method,, IE say yeah I know silly,, Sugar or meth's,,, something that is solulable with water but, an accelarent,,, was just a thought that hit me,,,, ummm heheh like the magic tape,,,,, I feel this is maybe a key thats missing,,

or should I say,,, the correct term,, a wetting agent,,, or another way,, surface tension reducer..,,, these are what are needed to break thru that surface barrier,,


remember me as the one who,,, ummm who??? heheheh

Hi Mark,

The PCB is not exactly a PCB but it is a sticky tape with some capacitors and resistors on it and that sticky tape is bonded tightly to the metal frame. Plus, I add the hot glue to every corner of the LCD to enforce the bonding. If I try to peel that tape off, it'll break.

I should've taken the photos yesterday when I disassembled my PJ.

Paul

WHAT?!

This is apparently atypical, though.

My sentiments exactly.

Mikau, I seem to be in your position. Where are you at since I last checked?

Yes Elken, I did remember somebody in the past 75 pages mentioned adding some accelerator to water. Tried searching just now but couldn't find, may have to search somemore...geez, 150 pages....I remembered when I was excited with just 10 pages when starting this thread, now, it's almost like a burden...oh, well

Mark: The line up of Klean Stripper you posted had me thinking. Since there are several different types I think I may experiment with some of them just to see which works better perhaps even Jasper....ah, I mean Jasco Who knows, there be one that doesn't need sanding (high hopes). I may have to purchase a gas mask with all this stripper I'd be testing with though unless my command can lend me a MCU-2...hehe
sim

If you're looking for a wetting agent or a surface tension reducer, you're going to want to search for "surfactants". A commonly used surfactant is called "silwet". I do not have much experience using this stuff, but as long as its chemical makeup is not repelant to that of the anti-glare, I believe that this may work. I would suggest making a solution of around 2% silwet in distilled water (either by volume or by mass, it shouldn't matter). Let it soak and check up its peel-ability every hour.

Great thoughts by the way, elken and SIMUL8R. Please let me know if I can be of service.

Its atypical allright. Your actually not the first to try the ragging method on the 512N. As far as I know I was the first to do it, at least on this thread. It was a genuine disaster. Read about it here: http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...indpost&p=97383




pm sent.

Whoa, something this harmful has got to be a/g killing....and then some...Like the advise Zete, but, ahh....this kinda makes stripper like play doe compared to using this. You think you can test this for us..hehehehe....whew
sim
SILWET : http://www.arabidopsis.com/main/cat/msds/m...ted.htm#msds_03

I didn't see your earlier posts on your experience prior to may stripping the monitor. Hard to read through 72 pages of posts. I was all set to go and buy stripper when I chickend out and thought I'd give the water method a go.

Sorry you had a hard go of it, too. I wonder if there is a manufacturing inconsistency involved or blind luck on my part.

Aren't household soaps and detergents surfactants?

blackmichael: saw your a/g removal attempt, sorry to hear, but in the meantime your waiting to replace with new polar you may be able to see the difference using your overhead pj. I'd like to ask though, pointing out the bubble you found, what is your best guess that happend causing it to bubble. Do you suppose you may had sanded to deep in this spot and marred the polar causing the stripper to permeat to the under TAC? Looking at the PVA itself, do you see any mild scratch over the bubble. I'm looking at the rest of your panel, it would seem unusual that a small area would have developed when the rest survived the stripping. Your descriptive observation of your experience would be helpful.
sim

There are many types of surfactants that may not be as harmful as silwet. Thanks for the MSDS. I couldn't remember the name in the past, but titron (x-100??) is another surfactant that may work. Can you find an MSDS for it? Also, can you research other surfactants?

I'd rather not test this right now because I only have one monitor, and I don't even have my projector built yet. I wouldn't want to mess up my one and only panel.

May have to look more into it, but these are just what I found so far. Not much info on MSDS or missed it by quick scanning. I'm not keen on biological chemical warfare but if someone who is perhaps can throw us a bomb.

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/supp/triton-x-100.html
http://www.genomicsolutions.com/files/80-0...ton%20X-100.pdf
sim

Oh yeah . pjgibbs came up with the idea while back (but I'll still remember you as the one who,,, ummm ), and had seemingly great success with the surfactant basic-h Cleaner:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...indpost&p=97801

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...indpost&p=97789

Detergents (dishwasher soap etc) are also surfactants. I think I will repeat the experiment with some Tide. If my panel gives in less than 5 hours, then I know it must help. I hate that I forgot about this idea (things were going good enough when it came up, and I was worried about controling the water if it had lower surface tension). Thanks for bringing it back Elken . Could be just what these panels need.

Mark.

Is purified water any differant then distilled water? Only differance I can think of. This isn't a matter of luck. Me and Vroom both soaked ours for over 12 hours and more and it ripped off the polarizer when we tried to peel it up. You soaked it for what..two hours? And it came off easy? Somethings differant somewhere.

Purified water just has some things taken out, such as quantities of metal and other unneeded nutrients. Distilled water is water that has been turned to steam and then recondensed into water. This takes out all (nearly) materials and leaves you with just H20. I mentioned this in order to eliminate the affect of other variables, and since the water is the active component in the rag method, the other materials are not needed.

Mark, I'm very interested to hear how your trials go using Tide detergent. Please keep us posted, and could you give us a detailed description of your process including the amount of detergent vs. amount of water, soak time, application method, etc?

ROAD TRIP!!! Another adventure into the valley of experimentation as beguneth
sim

Kroger's purified drinking water.

Getting a damaged panel from ebay with no cracks for testing. Wonder if we can claim these expenses when filing our taxes somehow..hahaha
sim

Purified, that wouldn't be the same as soften water would it?
sim

Dunno. Doesn't say on the bottles.

FWIW, I used distilled water. Purified vs. distilled making the difference? I don't know. I got the wet paper towels as close to the edge of the black without going over. Would going over onto the edge of the glass ruin everything? I assume it would with something strong, but I'm wondering if water could do enough damage. Going over the edge of the AG would ensure that the very edges were soaked. As you saw in my pic, the bubble occured inside the edge.

And I've decided that polar replacement is the only option I'll be happy with at this point. Because the corners of the polarizer have cuts in them, I'd have to mask them off and lose screen size.

So the non-adhesive polar from 3dlens is still the most recommended? I know at least one member going to try his luck at the adhesive kind. What's the news on the more advanced polar from 3dlens and/or others?

I did one try. Inconclusive. Shoot.

I took the rag and dipped it in Tide Coldwater Liquid Tide. Then I soaked that rag in water rinsing it around. I did it this way for no particular reason . I imagine the detergent was probably in a 1:1 with water (way overkill).

I found it took about 8 hours to give. That was longer than I would have expected regular water to work. Don't read into that too much. I am wondering if while adding detergent does decrease water tension, if it also neutralizes the water in such a way as to prevent dissolution. More likely though, is that I used so much detergent as to have detergent displacing water, which is the only active dissolution ingredient of the two. So there was less water doing it's work even though it may have gotten to the glue quicker. Or this was exactly the same as regular water and Tide detergent does nothing.

I will redo it with a more subtle proportion.

I did confirm one thing though. Getting the anti-glare started from anywhere other than a corner is really not easy. The angles involved insist that the stuff constantly tear in tiny pieces, and if the tape trick will not pop an edge up it is impossible to use a blade without marring things up. I am still wondering if this is the experience that vroom was having? The anti-glare was peeling up, it just was not going in a full sheet, and seemed to have more resistance. Reinforcing with tape would have probably helped. Each little bit was still fairly easy to pull up (still almost no force), just very hard to get started.

So, for sure you need to reinforce the edges with tape after the soak, and for sure need to start at a corner. To make this difficult to go wrong, I would suggest that people leave almost no border at least 2 corners (one backup if things don't start well).

I let the rag overhang slightly for this test, and it seems no water seeped in behind, and no grain has formed. I still need to suggest caution with this, though.

One other thing: there are still people doing a less than 12 hour soak, and giving up. 12 hours is the number that we feel is a reasonable time to assume it has not worked. And even then, getting things started can be deceiving.

Mark.

BINGO! Once my AG bubbled and I tried to work from there, this was exactly what was happening. However, I could not get the AG to peel up at any corner. I could get the polar to separate from the glass, but not the AG from the polar. I ended up just cutting little chunks of polar instead of pulling up the AG.

To clarify, these weren't little messy flakes that were coming up. This was real-deal anti-glare removal, in annoyingly small slices. I would say for a little while the pieces were 3 - 10 millimeters wide before they tore, and I had to start again. The only reason why I was able to start again is because this is a test panel, so I could dig into the PVA with my blade even in the visible area. I am willing on betting (no actually, not really ) that if you had soaked longer and had gotten a good start on it by reinforcing with tape that it would have gone a lot better.

I was having troubles getting this sample section started at the edge (not the corner, but the same experience could likely apply). I cut right through the polarizer down to the glass, and at that point it became even more difficult. I actually found myself prying up the polarizer as well. There is a very important point here. This panel was definitely ready, and is definitely water compatible.

I suppose it is possible that the TAC is adhered better at the edges than the center. But definitely not impossibly so. It can just be difficult. So a longer soak may be necessary.

The keys:

a. Overhang a corner or at least eliminate the border at the corner.

b. Make sure there is enough water.

c. Reinforce the border with tape after soaking and before attempting to flip up the corner. Obviously only do this to just the corner until it is proven that it will separate.

d. Try the proper tape pull up trick. On fail, do not use the sharp edge of a razor to cut into the corner. Try the back side of the razor, or poke just the tip of the razor at the corner, trying to sort of ramp just the top layer off without severing it.

e. Not worth giving up until at least the 12 hour soak mark.

Willing on trying again ?

Mark.

Obviously you all can see that Mark and I are working to improve our individual methods. Personally, it is fustrating seeing some of you are experiencing issues removing your a/g's. Our goal is to have all you and the next aspiring newby create his own awesomeness DIY pj with little risk. Elken and Mark's work on this new discovery is a milestone for LL and for it's members but fine tuning the process of this mod is where the rubber meets the road. And don't worry we're all getting there. We haven't gotten this far if we hadn't tried.

On that note, there is room for more experimentors on this stage. If any of you have the time or budget and/or a sacrificial panel laying about that you'd like to test your ideas on then you are all welcome to join in on the fun. Perhaps, one of you may find a better way or that sure all method in the process, who knows.
sim

1:45AM Central Time
Wet paper towels placed on 512N all the way to the edges. Plenty o' water.

EDIT: While Googleing I found the Nitto site. I noticed that site was used for research early on in this thread. But did anyone ever contact them about the pricing of their polarizer filters? I sent them an e-mail tonight, but was wondering if this was already investigated.

Cool . But maybe only let the corners have the rag right to the edge. The reinforcing tape will ensure that you don't have a problem everywhere else. To sum it up, it is key that you get a clean start on that corner. Let's not expect this to work and thus apply too much force, but it is great that you are giving it another try. We want to know for sure that there is something unrecoverable and wonky with your panel.

I really like this photo that Nitto has:

http://www.nitto.com/product/datasheet/opt.../002/index.html

It actually shows the point, that anti-glare is a textured surface. And then this picture of anti-reflective:

http://www.nitto.com/product/datasheet/opt.../001/index.html

Which shows a flat surface. Of course anti-reflective is thought to be beneficial. The chart on that page shows why.

The problem is that I don't think we will have any luck getting these polarizers without the adhesive. We currently do not have a solid process for applying adhesives, and aligning these things on the first go.

Kind of lousy to see yet another chart claiming a 4 - 5% loss of transmittance for each surface. So up to a 10% loss of transmittance with a floating polarizer. Something I have been thinking about is how to adapt our own adhesive to the elements of the projector. By adhering the collimating fresnel to the Lexan, for instance, you could gain 9 - 10% in brightness . I have opened another thread on this concept:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...ndpost&p=102812

Mark.

And apparently DPC

In my first application of KS-3 I waited too long (c. 40 mins.). The stripper and AG were mostly impervious to squeegeeing, so I used a plastic scraper. On closer inspection of the panel there is a scratch near the bubble, so I suppose this is how the stripper got to the polarizer in a later application. Amazingly, my ham fisted fumbling with the FFCs worked on the monitor, so here is a picture showing the white (looks gray in the photo (stray light and no tripod)) area where the bubble is. The streaks / residue are also apparent in a lighter image (not shown).

Another possible method would be to use a soft brush/sponge to coat a thin layer of detergent on the AG. Then, place a wet rag on top allowing the water to mix with the detergent and soak through the anti-glare. I would suggest this method over the method that you used, but make sure that the detergent coat is very thin.

Hi guys,, a quick in and out,,


I wonder if the PH level of water changes things any...

be good to get PH test kit and agents,,, you never know a high alkaline level might attack it faster, or viki verta,,,

catch you's all on the morrow's

Ohhh and that Pepe character really gets up my skirt too.... I wish he'd pay his 20 bucks,, grrrrrr

well, I guess its true, the third times the charm ;-) got a 17" lcd off ebay last week for 30$ and after my 2nd attempt to remove the anti-glare from my last panel(ag on both polars) ended with a vertical line on the projection(I'm sure from moving the ffcs' too much) I decided to finally strip the 17" ...lo and behold it had a shiny rear polar! at last ! ....ragged the front polar and gave it a try at 7 hours...and poof! came off in 3 pieces(except the very edge, maybe 2-3 mm), easier than scotch tape, like someone said earlier, like taking the protective film off a new appliance or clock or something, very little effort... I'll post the details in the other thread.... haven't put it in the pj yet, fiortunately I designed the new case(haasman style) to fit a 17 also(with a little retooling anyway)

On rear of my LCD has some kind of filter. I am not sure if it is a polarizer or AG.

What happen if I remove that piece off?

is it shiny or is it dull looking like the front? if it is shiny that is the rear polarizer...DO NOT TOUCH IT...the lcd will not function without it...if it is dull(look at a reflection on the panel) then it has ag on that side also(plus the polarizer)...... my last two panels both had AG on both sides.... one side went well the other not so well(both water based ragging) .....

Yes, it is shiny. So, it is a polarizer then.

yes, it is a polarizer and nothing need to be done to it, though a couple of people have removed the TAC layer from that side, results from that are not definitive as to efficacy though, probably not worth the risk at this time....

edit: just to be sure you understand, both sides have polarizers on them and both are absolutely neccessary to the lcd for it to function

Just FYI -- I removed the TAC from the opposite side of my panel this weekend with no negative effects. You just need to treat it with the same care as the antiglare side.

The TAC came off the same way and was roughly the same thickness as the AG layer.

notice any differences? I suppose at the least its one less layer to diffuse heat thru which is always good!

DPC? Being military, I'm up to my hair roots with acronyms so forgive me.
sim

I'm sorry to say that I skimmed over the polarizer replacement posts a bit when reading this thread, because now I need to replace mine. However, as far as I can tell there is no thread for or (very recent) summary of replacement. What I'm wondering about is:
-How do I remove the old polarizer (without further damaging my panel)
-Where do I get a new one (3D Lens, Polarization.com, other?)
-What kind do I get (I understand there are several types of polarization?)
-And anything else I should be asking...

Understood, normally one will see that putty knifing the goop may be done within 15 mins. I had the Kogi under stripper more than 3 apps and in duration of 30 to 45 and still no real damage to the PVA aside for some little scuffs that still didn't show up when the monitor was turned on.

Just as I expected, yes, the scratch you found near that bubble was caused when you sanded deeper into the a/g & TAC then should have. Really sorry to see that. Wish you the best in finding a replacement polar for your Hami.
sim

As I posted previous, my LCD can't be removed from metral frame. And I want to remove AG while it's in the metal frame. As some suggest, I should use stripper and sand paper.

Is it paint stripper?

Know what you mean Elken, pepe seemed to be trying to find all sorts of ways to shoot down LL and most everything new that we do here. I couldn't understand why he ridiculed the enhancement mod in the beginning but yet he went ahead with tests on his own.
Strange character.
sim