You should water rag™ it first.

.

Mark.

ooooo, them fighting words Actually I do that first just to wipe the dust off before I use stripper...hehehe...oh, and then again, afterwards, just because I admire you Mark.
sim

ps, you gotta show how you got that trademark, Mark...I likes.

Do you trust me Sonic...hehehehe.

Ok as far as comparison with both front antiglare/TAC and rear TAC stripped, mind you that I've done some changes with adaptor settings i.e. brightness, contrast, gamma..etc.. but I think if you can see the light coming through the blinds this would give you the idea of clarity I got after removing the TAC on the rear.
sim

After 23 hours, I came to that conclusion. I could remove very small chunks of ag with my knife, but it was still bonded to the polarizer. It looks like Liquid Video lcds do not like Mark's rag™ technique.

This makes me a little concerned about what to do with my BenQ FP591. I may go to Canadian Tire tomorrow and pick up some PEEK™ for the BenQ, and some stripper for the Liquid Video.

I may also go out tomorrow and trademark the name SIMUL8R™ before Sim discovers ALT+0153

Will let you all know how it goes.

Rhino

Thanks Rhino, I'm still not a full fledge geek but still aspiring to become one. hehe
SIMUL8R™

(Edit)hehehe.....okaaayyyy...it's the RIGHT key pad..I see. Thanks again Rhino

Maybe try sanding out a section first and see what happens? We've already been through ths with other panels, but it may be worth a shot. The BenQ could be different. The thing is that some panels have a barrier layer that protects the anti-glare. I don't know how this works, as I have never seen it.It is hard to tell. Are those first images slightly out of focus?

Regardless of what is doing the work for that last image, it is spectacular .

Mark.

In this corner, weighing in at 178 pounds, 99% of which is brain mass, we have - the contender:

Mark "The Water" Ragger.

And in this corner, back from the deserts of central Iraq, weighing in at a lean and mean 167 pounds and all heart:

Sim "The Stripper" Stimul8r....

Okay gentlemen, my name's Sonic and I want a clean fight ...

Actually, the first image with the a/g ON looks best to me - lol j/k.

Freakin' amazing - s'all I can say ...!

Strip launch scheduled for next week. Gota take the pj down from the ceiling for a ballst replacement. Pictures forthcoming

[EDIT]: that's got to be a new emoticon record for me ..

i have one white veritcal line, you think i should try messing with the edge connecter?

i missed the post office today with my 3dlens polarizer , will pick it up monday

we just beat FSU, time to party....again

If you are at the point of getting a new panel, and even if you aren't IMO then Yes. Can you actually see where the FFC connects? On my panel you can't. The FFC slips under a layer of plastic so I can't actually see the bond. But if I could, and I were having the line problem, for sure I would try pressing lightly on the FFC's. If that didn't work I would press a bit harder. Some people claim it takes a lot of force to make the connection again, but best to be cautious.

Are the FFC's glued to the board on that display as well, or are there a series of connectors on the board? If they are glued then I would apply pressure there as well if the panel connections seem okay.

This is all assuming that you do not have damage to the conductor path that is vapored onto the substrate. I am pretty sure this would not be the case, as the only way I can see that happening is if the glass cracked, and if the glass cracked it would take a lot more than just one line with it.

I'm not sure if I would apply pressure if you have a conductive rubber strip, though. Those can be finicky.

edit my point is that, from what I have read about this problem, you guys may not actually be in that bad of shape.

Mark.

I've got a two pixel wide vertical red line that makes my samsung 30% unusable - would that also be attributable to the FFC? Sorry this is off topic, I'd be happy to take it to the correct thread if someone has a link.

Is there a red line on both a black screen and a white screen?

Mark.

andysharifi successfully stripped a westinghouse. Stripped Westinghouse I believe I read somewhere that this is the same panel as the CMV520. Has anyone else heard this? I am going to be rebuilding my PJ in the next few weeks which means I will have the lcd(CMV520) out. MUWAAH! I don't think I will be able to stop myself.

Go Go, Gadget.... oops Brian!

LOL

I have a cmv 522a lcd that is fried so I tried to remove the antiglare film from it. I started from a corner and began peeling the film off. It came off with no problem. I did not use any kind of solution to aid in the removal. I just simply peeled it back like it was a piece of tape. The hardest part was trying to get my nail underneath the corner to grab hold of the film. Has anyone tried using a heat gun, maybe a blow dryer to assist in the removal?

My lcd is broken and their is no way for me to test out the colors and contrast. But I did notice a significant increase in brightness. The lcd screen looks 5 times much clearer and transparent than it did with the film on it. I sent Gadget the same lcd to test on. Lets see what he comes up with.

I need a life, nothing like stripping anti-glare film off your broken lcd at 3am. My woman is going to kill me.

shivers,
did you take any pictures ?? i was thinking the *exact* same thing... just peel, no water, no stripper, no nothing ! that would be a brilliant method... my only concern was "does/will it work"... i guess that question has been answered. yes ! I planned on using a hair dryer for heat, thinking a heat gun would be a big "too much"...

how exactly did you get the a/g started ?

excellent work !
gs

I don't know what to think. Andysharifi had waaay to easy of a time stripping his Westinghouse for it to be a 520D. However, on the otherhand, the pics from his plog look like the controller board is the same.

I really want the Westinghouse to be the same monitor, as I am in need of another CMV 520D as a drop in replacement, as the CMV 520D isn't sold anymore. (By the way, no amount of poking or proding on the LCD made the lines go away). Anybody have more info to verify these are indeed the same monitors?...where to buy? (besides $200 @ Bestbuy).

Chad, sorry to bring this up as it's probably a soar subject, but I think I hit apon the differences earlier.

1) He used a more powerful stripper KS-3 (I also used the most powerful stripper I could, savorgran "superstrip"... as opposed to the savorgran "regular" stipper)
2) Application duration was short and frequent, 30 min./application (or so), applied 5 times over 3 hour period (this too is what I had done... I just wish I had stuck with this a little more before ditching the effort and completely stripping the polarbear)

This is one test I plan to run on a CMV panel, application of *weaker* vs. *stronger* grade strippers... just to see how they compare, in a "controlled" test. (ok, as controlled as I can make it.)

On another note chad, are the lines vertical or horizontal on the panel ? if horizontal, where exactly are they located. I only ask as if they are located horizontal, and positioned properly I *may* consider selling/trading my CMV panel as I run strickly in a 1024x576 resolution... a long shot, but just curious.

Even after I switched to the premium Jasco, the AG took forever to come off. You are right though, things may have been different if I had tried multiple applications over a much shorter period.



The lines are horizontal toward the top of the panel. They may just be out of the viewing area of a 16:9 screen. Tonight I will throw up a 16:9 image and see for sure.

Yes, it is there no matter what. However, it was intermittent at first - a few hours on, a few off. But it's solid all the time now.

chad

if its out of , or close to out of 16:9 range, ill buy it off you

mine is vertical 1/3 in from the right

Using powerstrip I believe it is also possible to shift the 576 'up' or 'down' on the panel, so as long as you have a band of 576 pixels wide that is clear. This would require re-centering the LCD with the optical axis by either raising or lowering the LCD.

Looks like you've got a solid offer from mike anyway...

shivers,
got the panel in the mail this morning... thanks! ...ahh, what to do with it now. Muahahahaha !!!

Ohhhh...that poor panel....

This must be a different variety of anti-glare. I'm sure everyone here has tried dry peeling. I think this is the first one we've seen to exhibit this. It's a long shot, but you don't live in an extremely humid environment do you ? There is no way I could peel my anti-glare off even with heat. I have tried up to 100 degrees Celsius (212 F). It will be interesting to see which panels it works on. People should definitely try to dry peel first, as water and stripper will damage the TAC making a peel much more difficult.

For sure this was the anti-glare, and not the whole polarizer laminate or another layer/layers? Does what you peeled up look totally clear, but diffuses light, and is paper thin? There are more layers still glued to the glass?

Mark.

That would be my assumption as well Chad. While you may have sanded it the first time you strip with a lesser potent stripper, the attempt after drying may have more or less encapsulated the panel and was less permeable by the antiglare and TAC melting back onto the PVA. You did what you could using a more concentrated stripper after a lesser but by that time it wasn't the adhesives and the TAC that you were trying to remove quickly, it was the the TAC already chemically molded onto the PVA. The stripping method to me after attempts on 3 separate polars indicates we have to work quickly each time the chemical is applied and squeegeed or plastic putty knifed off the panel. I noticed the TAC was being smeared across the panel while scraping and when wiping the smear with alcohol immediately after a scrape got it off easier before it had the chance to dry and/or solidify as compared to completely scraping the entire panel and then wiping the panel w/alcohol. The first area I scraped and had already begun to go solid and was a bit more effort trying to remove the smear.
sim

This is what I was wondering to Mark. It is alot easier to pull up the entire antiglare/polarizer than just the antiglare itself without some assistance from the rag or stripper. Unless the panel has long been used in front of a hot lamp and the adhesives may have dried up or crystalyzed to some extent. Not certain.

Shivers: Could you hold up that film you removed to a light source and describe the color? Is it like dark purplish and thick sheet or like dull white and real thin?
sim

What I am trying to say is with my panel it isn't just harder: it seems impossible. You have to gouge it out while it cracks and flakes up in tiny fragments splitting depth-wise very irregularly. Like in Chad's photos, and as a couple people have mentioned.

But I am pretty sure he must have just pulled the anti-glare off, because otherwise you would surely have some substrate glue left behind. Would be pretty unlikely that all the glue wound up on the laminate. And it would be just as amazing to me that another layer separated before the entire laminate.

Mark.

thinking I might try this on my Samsung 712N tonight. I have yet to hear of any luck on the Samsungs with the rag technique. I will try the stripper method unless anyone suggests otherwise. Please post if you have any knowledge or tips on the Samsungs and I would hate to trash a monitor I paid 350 for.

foamcows: Check the other thread for 2 methods used on Samsungs. Miklopolis and Donkeytech. Both methods were used. I can't advise which will work for you but share my experiences with stripper method.

Sanding is crucial, round the sandpaper on your index finger and not folded. Sand in small circles making complete coverage throughout panel. Use Jasco or Klean Stripper, the strongest of either both, wait 10 to 15 mins. and try a scrape with plastic putty knife. You may notice that your digging in deep into the panel hitting and scraping up the PVA at first but dont get alarmed cause your not. If it doesn't dig and seems rather difficult or the layer beneath doesn't seem shiny then cover it back up again with the scraped stripper and wait another 5 to 10 mins. I had described scraping previously using finger pressure but I would now have to say it is more like hand pressure. It is a scary feeling doing the process but maintain confidence and work precise and quick otherwise it may take longer or more applications of stripper than 3 times. Remember what I said about wiping with denatured alcohol after a scrape you will notice the smear comes off easier but also remember to scrape the rest of the panel and not leave it any longer. By the second application I'm sure will understand what I'm talking about. Also, I suggest after each scrape you wipe off the residue off the putty knife with rags or papertowels, the more chemical you take off after a scrape the less chances it will accidently spill or touch ffc's or circuit boards.

Good luck
sim
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8283&st=0

The thing with water ragging is that there is seemingly zero damage to the panel if it doesn't work (that is the case so far, and only if you don't try to force it to work). As such, I would suggest ragging as per my instructions on the other thread first. If that doesn't work you can either give up and put the thing back in your projector, or go for stripper or one of the other methods.

edit of course, being that these are all very new processes, there is a certain level of risk.

Mark.

1. If you end up doing the paint stripper method be sure to use either "Klean Strip KS-3" or "Jasco Premium Paint & Epoxy Remover". Other stuff has been proven less effective.

2. Be very carefull when masking the panel. Pulling the masking tape off the FFcs going into the glass may have caused the horizontal lines I now have. You may cover the FFCs with paper, then mask off the panel.

3. Use a plastic putty knife to scrape off the stripper - not metal. It is better to use a smaller one no more than 2" across.

think a credit card/kroger card would work to scrape? Will the stripper eat silicone? I could cover my ffc's in silicone or a hot glue gun to protect them rather than tape.

I think Credit cards have too sharp edges.

You can't use hot glue on the FFC's because some FFC's are hot laminated on, and heat will pull them right off. In my opinion silicon is also risky because it will give your panel something to snag on. It snags, the FFC bond is what takes the hit. Expansion of the sealant could also compromise the bond and I'm not sure about the conductivity of hot glue or silicone. Best that there be nothing there at all.

I would definitely go for ragging first. It would really help learn about the Samsungs. On possible failure I would then use the standard stripper method here. Using paper and careful placement of tape should serve the job just fine.

The key to preventing damage is probably more in how you move the panel around, not so much how hard it is to control the solvents.

I should mention: Some areas of the panel may look like glass, but in fact are glass with a surface application of invisible conductive pathways. We don't know how resistant to solvent these pathways are beyond literature. Even a tiny spray droplet could mess things up.

Mark.

Mark those conductive tracks are extremly sensitive,, they are barley a molecule thick, and even rubbing them will damage them, and as to solvents, well, almost wipe off,, water will oxidize them away,, especially if they are powered,,, (hence make sure panel is fully dry before using again)

I have had to repair mobile phones that have fallen out of pockets,, into liquids,,, instant removal of power will save them,,, but left powered tracks eat away real fast,,,

FFC's are a pressure contact adhesive,,, (quite magic actually how they maintain conductivetity) a lot of devices have a pressure pad to maintain contact too,,

under no circumstances allow water to get at these,, they will self destruct on power up if damp,,

I have drowned entire circuit boards in soapy water to clean,,, but fully blown and dried them first,,,

I think an added step must be stated with any of the methods for A/G removal,, to make absolutely sure all the edges are totally dry before reuse,,

the above item is second nature to me,,, maybe I was remiss in not stateing this before,,, or have I hmmmm,,
but anyways, mark make sure in futher posts,, restate it, when anyone asks about procedure...

I indirectly posted this into the procedure by saying that if solvent gets anywhere else but onto the surface of the anti-glare you may be in for trouble. That combined with common sense should be okay. I edited in the electrolyte warning anyway, though.

I hope you don't feel we are disagreeing. It sort of reads that way.

Mark.

not at all,, i was feeling guilty for not making it clear, considering the losses so far,, even with common sense,,, I myself fully understand working with this kind of technology,,, cause and effects etc...

I couldnt post pics in the post. Here are the links.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/shi...20/IMG_0168.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/shi...20/IMG_0163.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/shi...20/IMG_0172.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/shi...20/IMG_0171.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/shi...20/IMG_0162.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/shi...20/IMG_0161.jpg




Here are some pics of the lcd. I didnt strip all of the anti-glare. My lcd is cracked in a few places and the film is holding it together. I am going to try to use a blow dryer and see what comes about. If the blow dryer doesnt work well, I will use a heat gun from a safe distance of course. Dont want to melt the damn thing. Anyway I have to run, but here are some pics.

Attn: Simul8tor, The anti glare film looks to be made out of some plastic and its not entirely clear, it has a very slight tint to it. Its similar to those term paper covers that they sell at any office store. Maybe a bit more durable. I gotta run. I will be back later on when I have more time.

Those pics (especially the last one) look to me as though that is the entire laminate that you are pulling up. The anti glare is a paper thin (literally no thicker than a sheet of standard printer paper) topmost layer of that entire laminate and has no tint at all. Certainly some anti-glare films could be thicker, but to have a tint seem unlikely.

If you look through that sheet at your (LCD) monitor and rotate it, does the monitor ever go black? If not, try flipping the sheet over and repeating.

Mark.

Well I still haven't ordered my new polarizer yet. Simply because I really feel I can remove the scratches with an adhesive polarizer, but thats more expensive, difficult and risky, and I can't make up my mind.

But I was just closely examining my lcd and I'm begining to think that there are no scratches on the glass substrate. It is often difficult to tell when a smugde is on the lcd, which side it is on, and the same goes for scratches. But now that I think of it, I didn't notice any scratches on the glass substrate when I was stripping it, untill I put it back in place and shined a light through it. If the scratches were on the back, thats exactly what would happen. I'm looking at my lcd very closely with a light on the same side I am, so far I can see now visible scratches on the glass surface. I'm going to look for a while longer but I'm begining to think there are none and all the scratches are on the front polarizer.

I'm going to check a while longer, but if theres no scratches on the glass, then I don't need an adhesive polarizer.

So perhaps I can just replace the front polarizer. I might wait untill those "lcd grade polarizers" come in at polarization.com.

So whats everyones oppinion on replacing the front polarizer as well?

As I expected.

Shivers: Just as Mark stated, you pulled the entire antiglare/polar off the panel. The polar is what you want left behind on the panel and all that you would have is a sheet or several pieces of sheets of antiglare off and laying about. The antiglare should be of course thin and no dark tint to it just kinda dull hazy film.

For those of you who have a chance to read this...LISTEN UP!!! I just got a pm from someone who thought the same thing about removing the antiglare from his panel, just gripped it and ripped it. Now, he doesn't know what to make out of his projection. This is why it is extemely important that you read the thread. I'm sorry that it is just to long for your taste but would you rather take a few hours to understand what it is that your dealing with or just jump right in last minute and cause more troubles because of your mistake?

I'm sorry, but this is fustrating when I really want all of you to enjoy your pj without antiglare but if you can't help yourself a little well then there may be a time we might not be here to help you all.

(Hangs head in fustration....)
sim

Sim,,,, hmmmmmm what can you say !!

concurrence...

that is why I dont say too much now...

only a bare few of us fully understand what this all means and its impact.. (exampled by our own view of how much gain there is from before enhancement)

and also after Mark has put sooo much effort into all the research he has done too, plus a few others as well..

We have putting together our own forum aussie style, which wont be in competition with LumenLab,, in fact supporting it,,, but tailored for us downunderer's.. something that I can control, especially in the direction's of Enhancements and Case kits etc, As soon as I can get the new LL Lens sets,, I already know, that this will exceed quite a few of the expensive commercial PJ's in performance..

My advice would be to rag it first. Give it a try but DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES FORCE THE A/G UP! Mikau's panel has already fallen victim to that (a Samsung 512, ragging, too much force to lift a/g). My gut feeling is that ragging will not work becauase the 512 seems to have a water-impermeable a/g layer. If it doesn't work, no harm done - just use the stiripper. Make sure it is absolutely free of water before you do this because the Methylene Chloride will flash (evaporate) immediately if the surface is damp reducing the strength of the application. Use multiple applications of premium grade stripper.

My Benq is prepping for surgery. Will go under the knife tomorrow ....

Best of Luck!

I'm crossing everything I have Sonic just for you buddy. Even the fresnels and titty whitties!


sim

Guys,

Don't get frustrated. You guys are doing excellent research and I truly believe alot members are going to benefit from the fruits of your labor. If someone takes it upon themselves to not read before they go for it then so be it. You guys have given plenty of disclaimers. This is an Extreme Mod just as the forum is stated so please try not to take the failures personal or feel responsibile for them.

Keep up the good work,
Brian

Thanks Brian......(sigh)
sim

But I'm the one who PM'd SIMUL8R .

At least it would be a bit funny if it was me .

I like the way Sonic does things. He could easily just slap a damp towel on his prepped panel right now, but he chooses to wait until he is entirely engaged. I wish I had been like that when I stripped my display from its case. That was a circus. Panels should never be touched without a full nights sleep .

Mark.

To the person who removed the entire polarizer by accident. Not to worry . There are many people who have chosen, or defaulted, to that as well. All you need is a new polarizer. There are many posts in this thread to the effect of replacing the polarizer altogether.

Mark.

In my oppinion a tutorial of the various methods should be written now. I don't think we'll every find a method thats risk free, and that will work for all lcds. The antiglare removal improvement in my oppinion is HUGE and we should make it available to everyone and not demand they read a twenty five hundred post thread. Thats just not practical.

I really think we need to make a separate thread for each workable technique, a basic description of how its done, a disclaimer on the risks involved and the do's and don'ts of that particular technique. I'm sure in time we will find better and better ways to remove the antiglare, but I think for those who want to risk taking the plunge, they should have easy access to all the information and not have to sift through 2,500 replies.

I don't know what everyones waiting for. The research and idea's are never going to stop coming, just like new idea's keep coming for the lumenlab projector (which includes antiglare removal) but did brain wait untill the projector was as good as its ever going to get before starting this community? We have no idea how good this antiglare removal techniques are going to get so how will we know when we get there? Why should we wait to bring them out in the open? Its still a risky process? Sure, but you were willing to take that risk and others will be too! I really think its time to make these techniques more accessible to the community. It looks like more disasters are occuring with uninformed people then with people who were aware of the risks and gave it a go.

Anyways thats just my oppinion.

Would anyone care to comment on whether removal of my scuffed front polarizer is a good or bad idea?

I'm hoping that people will refer to this post for the water technique, and to SIMUL8R's post at the top of that thread for the stripper technique. I think both posts make it pretty clear what it is that we are getting at. I suppose they could be more centralized and specific.You could do what SIM did and just remove the TAC. I don't suggest you remove that polarizer.

Mark.