Correct but without sanding. Since he now has an area of the substrate (LCD glass panel) exposed and partly covered by antiglare/polar he risks the chance of scratching the substrate by accident. My opinion is to continue soaking it completely off but if proceeding with the stripper method will take a bit of effort cause whilst the PVA is resistant (my opinion) to the stripper it has to seep underneath that to disolve the plastic protector that is adhesed to the substrate which will become quite tedious and messy.

p.s., sorry Mikau to give you more of the bad news.

sim

(edit) Otherwise just do the total pull...the "Rip Method"

oztang if you will just hold the polarizer up to your LCD, you should be able to tell rather quickly if it is a suitable replacement or not.

Well thats actually not bad news, I was already aware of all that.

"he risks the chance of scratching the substrate by accident."

EXACTLY what I was thinking. Only its a tricky problem. Like I said I was peeling off the entire substrate and it was very very hard to pull off. Stuck really really well. Thats when the polarizer and antiglare suddenly split off from whatever was underneath it and came off easy. Ok but now I've got that extra hard to peel layer on the lcd and hardly anything to grab it with. I don't want to try peeling it off with a knife for feer of scratching the glass. So yeah I'm going to need some sort of stripper or something.

What worries me is this, water did not work for my panel like it did for others. How do we know stripper will work as well? I suppose a little test won't hurt but still its something to consider.

Pic below shows the current situation on my lcd. I had peeled the substrate up on two corners when the polarizer separated from whatever was underneath it.

Mikau: Stop the presses. Don't touch anything until we know exactly what you are dealing with. Something just isn't adding up. I have seen your latest pics and something is not right.

Your words and pictures aren't quite lining up.

Mark.

I'm not pressing anything I'm not that upset to the point where I need to comfort myself.

I agree, there seems to be an extra layer or something that didn't seem consistant with what we've been talking about. I haven't done anything since last last night. But honestly I don't think theirs much more damage I can do.

What? My words and pictures contradict? I assure you I'm not trying to hide anything. Just let me know where the words and pictures conflict and I'll fix whichever is incorrect.

Okay. Now we can figure this out comfortably. . I'm not challenging you. I just feel there there is something missing here.

First off, it sucks immensely to hear that the theoretical problem of not waiting long enough actually happened. I was never able to reproduce the problem, I only included it in the instructions because it seemed possible.

So how much PVA actually came up? What area? What depth? The whole chunk of PVA right down to the rear TAC came up?

How hard were you pulling? If it feels like removing a piece of tape, even that may be too hard.

Mark.

The substrate glue is the sticky substance that you see (I hope). It will release from the polarizer laminate much easier than from the panel.

It cleans off with a number of different solvents, and there are some commercial goo remover towelettes that worked for me.

Mark.

I'm not entirely sure what the PVA, and TAC stand for. All I know is this: The top layer seemed to consist of the antiglare on top of the polarizer. But what I didn't expect was there seemed to be an additional layer between the polarizer and the glass substrate. Lets call it layer X. When I first began trying to peel off the antiglare (when the polarizer tore) the polarizer along with the antiglare peeled off layer X. But when the polarizer ripped I realized I was peeling off the polarizer as well as the antiglare. Since I had torn the polarizer I figured no way back, no fixing it. And my only option was to remove the entire substrate. So I carefully began peeling off layer X. The bottom most layer. Actually know I remember one thing that happened then. It didn't split as I was peeling it, actually suddenly the piece I was pulling at snapped off. So I grabbed the layer again from where it broke. I pulled up on it but instead the polarizer/antiglare came up. The unpeeled portion of layer X reminaed on the glass. I peeled the whole polarizer off. Layer X was removed only at the corners and remains on the majority of my lcd. What worries me is this is the spot with the really strong glue so getting rid of that might be a problem.

did you try with the milk by the way? (what the heck )

I'm not entirely sure, but I think I know what has happened here.

There are these layers:

Glass substrate. Shiny (obviously like glass). It is the same material that your FFC's are bonded to.

Then glued to that with a thick sticky acrylic glue is a laminate of several plastic and glue layers that looks like one piece of plastic. It is about the thickness of a piece of cereal box cardboard.

The water techniques does not allow that laminate to separate from the acrylic substrate glue. It allows only the top very thin layer of that laminate to separate. The top layer is made of TAC. It has anti-glare texture etched/sprayed into it.

That top layer is very thin. Thinner than a piece of paper. It is the anti-glare.

Immediately below it is a very thin layer of glue. You cannot even see this layer, or ercieve it's thickness. When wet, it turns to a gooey film. Below that is the PVA. This is the polarization material. It is about the thickness of a sheet of rice paper.

Below that, another layer of thin (undetectable) glue.

Then another layer of TAC (quite thick).

Then the acrylic substrate glue (you have seen this).

Then the acrylic substrate.


So I think you may know where I am going with this. It is possible (as I read), that you have not been pulling up on the anti-glare layer (thin floppy sheet of plastic paper), but instead the entire polarizer laminate, leaving just the substrate glue behind (where it did not stick to the polarizer laminate instead).

Does that sound like it could be the case?

And even if it is, you are definitely not in deep water. Sounds like you may have a large section perfect polarizer laminate.

I guess the easy question is, just how thin is the anti-glare as you started it from the corner? Did it start off clear?

Mark.

Almost did, but luckily I had the milk away from the projector. I was sitting on the floor with the lcd on a small table. The milk was beside me. I bumped the milk and it spillled over. To tell you the truth I really couldn't care less when the milk spilled. I threw a few paper towels on it but a minute later I realized I was sitting in a puddle of milk. (I'm serious). I didn't care I had more important things to worry about.

Btw mark, the antiglare and polarizer came off with little difficulty. I actually think the water had something to do with it. But the polarizer and antiglare just refuse to come apart.

Mark at first I peeled off the uber thin antiglare layer with a knife at the edge. But as I peeled it up but it refused to separate from the polarizer any more and pulled the polarizer up with it. There was a thin layer beneath that, layer X.



I think thats layer X.

Gotta go for about an hour. Keep discussing, I'll read up when I get back.

If so, would this description of what happened fit:

You used a razor to get the anti-glare started up. A very thin material flipped up and you grabbed it with your fingers. As you pulled it up a ways, you could look through it and see it was not gray at all. It was also very thin, and if you let go, it would fall back down with gravity. You could also see that on one side of this thin piece of perfectly clear plastic there was the anti glare treatment, and on the back side it was perfectly shiny and smooth. The material can easily by scrunched up like a piece of tape. Looking at what is left behind you notice it is perfectly flawlessly mirror like. No bubbles or other junk (is definitely not substrate glue). You go along for a bit and snag the dumb thing gets hard to pull up on. So you pull harder. After going for a bit like that you realize the material is no longer clear, but has taken up some gray material (PVA). There is a blotch left on the otherwise perfectly shiny PVA now. Then apparently you pull harder, and the whole anti-glare layer tears. Da da da the story doesn't fit anymore.

So this is the scenario I read has happened:

You take a blade and cut into the side of the polarizer laminate. You then grab the top half of this cut and begin pulling. It comes up okay. This I believe was the laminate taking on a cross sectional tear until it finally snapped right in half. At that point you were pulling on the whole polarizer laminate and were pulling against the laminate to substrate adhesive. This is not easy. Thus the polarizer laminate tears.

Never was the anti-glare isolated from the laminate stack and pulled independently of the rest of the layers. It is perfectly possible that the anti-glare was primed and ready, but was missed. It is hard to get that bugger started it isn't a forceful operation, but it sticks down pretty good and is so thin it's like trying to pick a very thin layer off a very smooth surface.

Either that, or you pulled up only on the polarizer laminate the whole time.

Does that sound right?

Mark.

Mikau,

Jeeze man! Is this your first DIY project? The word "Disaster" seems to come up often in your posts.

Either you have the very worst luck of anyone on this forum, or you are an exceptionally bad DIY builder. I suspect the latter.

But the good news is that your skills will only improve each time you mess up.

Hang in there, man! At least now you can do what you wanted to do earlier, provide experimental input to this forum.

We know now that at least one member has not been able to use the water tchnique on a 512N lcd. If another member has problems with the water technique with that same panel then I think we can conclude to not use water on that panel.

You will be one of the first to try an external polarizer on your panel. You might want to wait for others to try first. Unless, of course, you feel confident about blazing the trail yourself.

The water is not in contact with the PVA for hours. It may only be in there for 5 minutes. It just takes 12 hours or so for it to permeate the anti-glare (TAC). If it hasn't permeated the TAC, then it will be dry. Further, it seems to permeate the TAC nearly evenly so if one place is dry, the whole thing will be too dry (except presumable for the very edges, where water will not spread like in the center).

Mark.

Has anyone here with a digital camera pulled up just anti-glare before, and can thus take a macro photo of exactly what the layer looks like (ideally being pulled off the polarizer laminate)?

It would be a huge help in explaining and preventing future confusion with what I think has happened here.

Mark.

Man thats pretty harsh.

Will do Mark, but ahhh....may take 12 hours or more. I have that sample piece from moniserv.com that I believe is the antiglare & polarizer laminate.

sim

Thanks SIM. In the meantime here is a drawing. Pardon the crudity of my model .

Click to view attachment

Working from the top down:

Anti-glare treated TAC. Clear.

Very thin adhesive. not visually perceivable. But reddish in the drawing.

PVA. polarization plastic. Does all the work. Very thin and gray. Gray line in the drawing.

Very thin adhesive. not visually perceivable. But reddish in the drawing.

Rear TAC. TAC that is not anti-glare treated. Clear.

Substrate adhesive. Acrylic. Clear and perceivable. Not the same consistency as the laminate adhesive. Very gooey. Reddish in the drawing.

Glass substrate (panel).

Mark.

Mark, how would you want me to test the antiglare/polar test laminate. Have it laminated to a plexiglass first before sponge soak or just submerge the entire test piece in water and wait for all layers to seperate and take pictures?
sim

Definitely the Plexiglas thing is a great idea. It would be the closest to the actual recommended process. Definitely not a dunk in water. Don't want people mistaking that for the actual process (laced with issues).

The Plexiglas with paper towel folded and dampened and placed almost to the edge would be ideal. And if you could take a snapshot of that before it is even ready would really help.

Thanks a thousand words,
Mark.

Mark,
sorry didn't mean to imply that is was in contact with the PVA for hours, simply the application to the panel (in general) was hours... my point being, once the water is able to permeate into the PVA layer, water is much more damaging than stripper, and in a very short time. (I believe water is drawn into the polarizing strands by capilary action, causing a sudded catashophic failure of the PVA... just my hypothesis) PVA is pretty resistant to the main ingredient in stripper (methylene choride), so any "accidental" exposure would be ok if using stripper, however water will begin damage almost immediately. IMHO, this makes stripper a prefered solution... water is simply very risky knowing how it attacks the PVA so quickly, so for those wishing to err on the side of caution, stripper would be a prefered method.

Mikau,
sorry to hear about your woes... I feel for ya, been there myself a bit... identifying the layers is the hardest first part... (hindsight always 20/20)... i believe what is left on the LCD glass (substrate), is what mark has shown in his diagram. I call it adhesive... whatever it actaully is, I don't know, but according to mark it is some sort of acrylic. You can peel the polarizer/with a/g off w/o soaking in anything... hopefully most of the adhesive will come off with the peel, but whatever is left behind can be cleaned with some sort of adhesive solvent.... this shoud do no harm to the glass layer (substrate). The stuff I used is called oops, but there are many other things (goo gone, etc...) that would do the same thing for you. just to gently as you can still crack the LCD at this point, especially if you are going to peel the polarizer off the glass... go slow.... *real* slow.... good luck.

After Mikau's distaster this looks like by far the best solution.

I am very interested in samuraijack's info once he hears from the guy.

Phutton, actually I'm a bad diyer with horrible luck.

A brief history of myself:

I live in a dangerous area of philadelphia so my parents choose to homeschool me because of that. Wasn't my idea but thats what they did. Well it didn't go well educationally wise. Yeah I didn't get addicted to heroine, shot, or chopped up and thrown in a dumpster (Which did happen to someone here the other week) but my education was pretty lousy as my parents were no teachers.

I eventually took a course to get a high school diploma, and got it but it was pretty cheap. More paper work then education.

Anyways I'm now 19 and trying to get into college, I taught myself algebra 1, 2 trigonometry and am now working on calculus. Math is the only thing I know anything about and am good at.

My point is, I'm not very well educated in anything other then math. You guys here all seem to be chemists, physicists, engineers and whatever. I do my best to keep up but its not always easy. I did learn a lot helping my dad rebuild my house, stuff like carpentry, electrical wiring, etc. But just simple stuff.

I do my best to keep up and I'm trying to educate myself. Its the best I can do.


I tend to screw up a lot. You don't have to rub it in.

As noted, Mikau's disaster looks to be simply been a breakdown in communication. And it wasn't a disaster, per say. There are other options.

There is something that is very important that I have been trying to say. Both stripper and water are damaging to PVA. The solution for both is to control the duration.

With Stripper we dissolve away the TAC as quick as we can. The PVA will be in contact with the stripper for most of this operation.

With water, you need to time the permeation such that you do the pull fairly soon after water has come into contact with the PVA. Just after it has weakened the adhesive. If you can do that, the PVA will have come into almost zero contact with water. The towel technique is what allows us to do this. The damage shown to PVA with water was done using a fully immersed dunk with previously fractured PVA. That is a very different scenario.

PVA has never been put through the same dunk style tests with stripper.

If you took stripper that could remain active for 24 hours and placed it on an exposed surface of PVA, you would most certainly see the sort of damage that water would do in the same time. And the reality is, I have done this with water and there was no damage. I still need to repeat the experiment to confirm.

This is the conversation I was worried would perpetuate upon receiving results of dunk tests. It is just not the same as controlled surface application. We have never done an equivalent dunk test with stripper.

Mark.

You mean I did something wrong?

My last few posts have painted a couple scenarios that I think you may have actually been in. Everyone makes mistakes. It's not a big deal. Just as long as you take in all the advise given from here on, I think you'll be laughing in the end.

Read my recent posts since you left, and then take a look at the diagram I posted. Is it fair to say this is just an issue of layer identification? It is the only way I can put the whole story together. Me and Mikau should see about getting a bulk deal on digital cameras .

Mark.

No shame in homeschooling or being self taught. Some of the best engineering students i know are self taught.

STOP! Thats pretty much it so far. I did not accidently peel up the polarizer from the start if thats what you think I did. At first, I lifted a thin clear layer at the edge of the lcd. No polarizer underneath. I peeled it up and heard a ripping noise, then it broke off. I examined the small piece that tore off. The front half of the piece was perfectly clear. The back half had polarizer stuck to it. So I had peeled up the antiglare but the polarizer stuck to it and wouldn't let go, so it ripped off.

THEN after realized I had recked the polarizer I decided to remove the entire substrate so I could replace the polarizer. I lifted the bottom most layer with a knife at the edge and peeled it back. It went well but at one point the piece I was pulling on broke off. I grabbed at the breakpoint to continue pulling, but all that came up was the polarizer/antiglare sheet. The bottom layer stayed stuck down. Basicly its like when your peeling a sticker off something, your peeling piece by piece, when suddenly, the paper of the sticker rips apart from the adhesive. The front of the sticker comes off and the paper backing remains glued to the surface.

So basicly I began to peel up just the antiglare but a second later the polarizer decided to hitch a ride.

The amount of force needed to tear the anti-glare is way too much. Anything near that kind of force is an indication that things need to soak longer.

How thin would you say the gray stuff is that hitched a ride with the anti-glare? Like watercolor paint?

Does the diagram absolutely confirm what you are saying? That is, every layer right down to the gray line pulled up? If so that is fascinating, as I have tried to replicate what you have done and it just won't happen here. You mention that you think the water has helped soften the substrate glue. Water should never have been near the substrate glue. Did it spill over the edge of the laminate somehow?

Your polarizer is not completely broken. How big was the polarizer (PVA section) that came up? It is only that area that would have resulted in a white blotch on your screen. You can salvage the polarizer, remove the anti-glare and place it at the triplet.

Mark.

And did the polarizer tear from the edge, or did a patch right in the middle of nowhere just pop out like a piece from the middle of a puzzle?

Mark.

the triplet mount method is really hard to do to produce a decent image. every image ive gotten has been worse then before i stripped it. just pointing that out again so you dont get peoples hopes up.

ask meyer2 if you are in disbelief.

I've never been an advocate of triplet mounting, but Elken had to much success for me to believe it could be exceptionally bad. The key with triplet mounting is you need a perfectly clean polarizer. Even then it has it's inherent limitations (polarizer incidence angles).

Mark.

Well thats good news. My polarizers broke in several pieces as I peeled it. But I definitly have a piece large enough to cover the triplet. But first I still need to clean that extra gunk off.

Diagram looks right to me, but I really don't know all the layers there are so I'm not absolutely sure. But it does make sense sine an additional layer remained below the polarizer.

I was carefull to keep water from spilling over the edge. At times little droplets would make their way off the edge but I dried them immediatly. What was good about the paper towels is any water that seeps out around it evaporates very quickly.



Very very thin. The polarizer appears thiner then the antiglare.

That polarizer I threw in the bucket is still in there. I just checked it and the polarizer still won't separate from the antiglare.

The latter. Perfect description.

Yeah, good luck cleaning the polarizer man.

Hmmm after reading this,, you have gained my full respect,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

what you have described,, makes you a better person than most of us out here,,,
and I feel, you will go a long way in life,,,, simply because YOU wanted to learn..

so credits to you...

clive

There should have been 3 layers below the torn up PVA. Would you say that the layer exposed where the puzzle piece was lost was the same layer as the glue that holds the whole polarizer laminate to the glass substrate? Or was it the same stuff that the anti-glare is made out of?

Mark.

Nicely put Elken... and ditto to that.

Thanks, elken. Only problem is I didn't have the motivation to educate myself untill I was old enough to realize the value in it.

Trying to take a pic of that first piece I tore off. Web cam is crap!

I really can't tell. Its just a wierdish black layer that I saw when I peeled off the whole polarizer.

That was then,, all matters is now and beyond,,, dont worry,, reviewing how tenacious you have about asking questions, is now understood,, and I, and, on behalf of everyone else. take back any comments knocking you..

so sit back, take a sanwich, a banana, and now we know a 'glass of milk',,

hold fast, we are all very close to, testing replacement polars..

the a/g layer is usually clear in colour too....
clive...

Ok heres a really crappy pic of the first piece I pulled off. You can just barely see the outline of the antiglare. The antiglare is where I began pulling, and as I peeled up that piece of the polarizer stuck to it and peeled up with it.

Thanks. I think I'll do that. Feeding frenzy!

Hi Guys, just catching up on last night's dramas. I quickly read through and didn't notice that this possibility had been mentioned so excuse me if it has.

I believe that Mikau began this saga by attempting to polish the antiglare off. If anything, I feel that this step is what has ultimately caused the failure of the water method. It may have inadvertantly placed a barrier on the antiglare that the water couldn't properly permeate.

So I wouldn't go discounting this method on the type of panel that Mikau used, we just need to get someone with a 'virgin' screen to try it.

If you run your fingernail along the substrate glue, it should leave a mark.

If you run your fingernail across the next layer up (TAC) it should not mark.

If you run your fingernail along PVA, it should not mark.

So if you run your fingernail along the exposed section where the puzzle piece came out of, it should not mark if it is TAC. You should evidently not be able to mark it up at all no matter how you scratch it (beyond something that would scratch the anti-glare).

These questions as well as the web-cam pic, are actually very helpful for any technique we pursue. It is very important that we figure out what happened here by first identifying what you are seeing. My thanks for you taking the time to answer all of these questions . By all means have a sandwich . But I hope you are with me that this needs to be investigated.

We can't see the PVA that pulled up in that picture can we?

You see, the fact is that the rear adhesive should not have released before the front adhesive. Water should never have found it's way to the rear adhesive in that time. We still don't know if water would ever make it through PVA without dissolving it's way through. It leads me to wonder if:

a. The section that pulled up was the PVA, and rear TAC still adhered. This would leave only the laminate to glass substrate adhesive behind. Very hard to imagine since the anti-glare should have snapped first.

b. The PVA was not bonded down at all in that area. A defect. Even still, the force I have seen necessary to tear PVA strands to create a puzzle piece like that seems quite high.

Even if it was not bonded in back, then if the front glue was soaked long enough I feel the anti-glare would have released first.

c. The PVA in your case has dissolved. Seems easy to believe. But if you have seen this go well, you would have a hard time believing it could happen. Especially with such minimal exposure to water.

Mark.

Thought of that. But I only polished the middle of the lcd. I didn't get to the edges. It didn't seem to do anything anyways so I never got around to doing the edges. And even the edges wouldn't peel apart. Besides, I threw those polarizers in a bucket for 8 hours and the antiglare still won't separate from the polarizer. Seems completely immune to water.

Having some difficulty following you, mark. When I removed the antiglare and polarizer, my finger nail scuffed the new surface at one point. A scratch was left. I freaked out and thought it was the glass substrate I had stratched but was releaved it was just some sort of adhesive layer.