Warning: there still could be a curve ball lingering. Please wait a bit longer before attempting this. It is best that we clearly identify what the grain is before this can be recommended.

Well, I just hit the 12 hour mark on this rag soak. The technique definately works. No grain, no torn PVA, no fraying, just a sheet of anti-glare to my left, and a panel with anti-glare removed on my right. It took all of 5 minutes to pull it off.

Sweet .

12 hours was a good number. I knew it would be ready in about 6, but I wanted to make sure it went very easily, and wanted to see if any grain would appear. I cannot see any grain at all. The PVA won't fray at all. It is very well bonded to the rear TAC still . A soft lint damp rag will wipe up the slimy layer of adhesive that remains. Wipe with the polarization axis. I did it both ways and no worries at all, but with the axis will be safer overall and more effective. Do this quickly or it may dry up again. After cleaning up, a fan dried the surface water in about a minute.

The one problem was that the glue literally didn't soften at all within a millimeter or so of where the rag sat. This means that some of the edges did not come up as easy as it could have, and therefore the sheet had to come up in several strips. The other thing is that I am not sure what the suitable instrument is to get the edge up and started. The razor is too harsh. You could accidentally slip up and slice something instead of just prying the suction up. That really is all that holds the TAC down after soaking. Suction from the atmospheric pressure. You could pull as hard as you want from the center, and it wouldn't budge, you need to get air to release underneath by getting a corner up.

If you have a conductive rubber strip, then I would be very careful around that thing. The water can be kept away, but when peeling you need to use undue caution.

edit: and I was convinced I had not soaked for long enough. It took a very precise edging to get that first corner up. The suction is very strong (14+- PSI).

Fin .If they have TAC protective layers then yes. But only if you don't want to use it again. They got scuffed? Shoot. It is possible that the layers are not TAC but instead the non water permeable PC (polycarbonate).

Thanks for your help .

Mark.

I should be more clear about what the 2 problems that could occur if the water is allowed to permeate through the TAC backing or at the edges:

Fraying: This is a physical separation of the polymer strands of PVA on the surface of the TAC. It seems to occur in combination with a weakened rear bond, and too much bending at the polarization axis. You can create this fraying by bending a piece of exposed PVA. It literally makes a snapping noise as each rod of PVA snaps apart from it neighbor. It is then free floating and can even fall right off the sample.

Grain: Grain is a strange effect that I have only guesses, but no proven explanation for. It can only be seen when you hold the sample up to a light and rotate and rock it around. At a certain angle, the grain will show. It is an irregular pattern of variously length glowing lines. They are perfectly straight along the polarization axis, but can be spaced at various intervals. I am pretty certain these are a stress effect as well from the peeling of the polarizer. They are fraying fractures that didn't quite make it right through the layer.

Please bear with me, as it is very hard to explain these 2 effects without photographs. But they could be photographed without a macro lens.

The long story short is that the rag technique without removal seems to correct both these issues. The PVA remains firmly adhered to the rear TAC so no fraying can occur, and the PVA is supported by the substrate so it cannot be bent. That seems to prevent grain. This has not been repeatedly confirmed. But both my rag applications have gone perfectly.

Mark.

I'm happy I got here in time to see and read all about this water technique. Very interesting!

I've read all the the posts on the water method so far and just want to get two things clear. First are we talking about distilled water or any type of water?

Second, it seems preventing water from getting under the pva is the key to this rag technique. What I'm wondering is to begin peeling we have to start at the edge of the lcd. How do we succesfully soak the boarder of the layer without dripping over the edge?

Sonicwonder. You must have been blind drunk to take those pics. What on earth were you thinking? We are supposed to be soaking our lcds in water, peeling its clothes off, and taken pics. Not soaking our heads in booz, peeling OUR clothes off and snapping pics! What I just can't figure out is WHY did you do that? I can understand if you have more important things to do with these experiments and can't waste your time putting clothes on, that I can understand, but for gosh sakes why did you have to point the camera at your crotch? If you needed a white surface and couldn't find anything better then tighty whities, couldn't you have just gotten another pair rather then dropping your pants and snapping a pic? Or do you only have one pair?

WHY did you do it? What made you think we wanted to see that?

That is hilarious!!

lol. I made myself laugh with that.

(edit) I didn't quite realize how funny it was untill I reread what I wrote. I'm laughing hysterically now!

Yeah baby! Well said Mikau. That one post tops all your nearly 1400 others...not that I've read them all...

But, if that is how he does his best work, in his tighty whites and nothing but with mounds of cleavage around, more power to him as it seems to be working and I can't wait for the final results (not sure I want to see the background though)...[cue music: I love that old time rock-n-roll...]

I would use distilled. I used tap for this test panel, but to be completely sure distilled would be good. The reality is that the TAC should filter out any particles in tap water, and the chlorine should evaporate. However, I don't know what fluoride would do over time. Best to just use distilled. It's at the grocery store (not mineral or spring water). I think Evian is distilled.The water will seep horizontally about about a mm. That means that as long as you get the rag within a couple mm's of the edge then the glue will loosen at the edges as well. You are best to leave some extra room there as opposed to risk having water get over the edge.

edit: and those were pretty important questions that I forgot to fill in the blanks on. Thanks .

And I never even noticed the background in those pictures. (Joking ).

Mark.

Sure, he can do this naked for all I care, so long as he isn't featured in his progress pics.

Glad I could help. Also happy I was able to ask an intelligent question and make people laugh in one post.

I should also say how I cut the edges of the test area. The towel that I put down takes up 1/4 of the panel. So I would just yank the strips along until they snagged on the dry area and split. No scissors . This seems to have caused no damage to the PVA. It is very violent. Don't do it, but I am just saying this stuff has a very strong rear bond.

Mark.

What I don't get is, as far as I can tell, all this method involves is putting a wet rag or sponge on your lcd, leaving it there for 12 hours and peeling it off. Sounds absurdly simple. I read the whole thing I just want to make sure I know whats going on. Anyway what I don't get is, I thought antiglare was plastic! How is water getting through it?

It is absurdly simple. But like all simple things getting it that way has not been .

The TAC is permeable because it is cellulose based. Cellulose is porous and the openings are large enough for water to pass by capillarity. That is a huge factor as to why this works.

Mark.

I would like to make a point that I don't think has been addressed in this tread. People are using a wide variety of LCDs so what works for one panel may not work for another even from the same vendor because they changed to a different glue of different polarizer material. So what work for one person maybe the worst thing for everyone else. There may also be an issue depending on LCD history i.e. older polarizers may be more likely to crack from age than newer ones etc... . The work dohe here has been great but we do need to apply caution to find the solution that works with our panel.

Saturated Layered Paper Towel.

Analyzer.

Glass Substrate.

Click to view attachment

Mark.

THIS FORKING GLUE WONT COME OFF

Did the glue stick entirely to the polarizer when you peeled it?

Mark.

Xylene, Naptha, Benzine, Tolulene, "Goof-Off" - have you tried any of those? What exactly have you tried thus far to remove it that hasn't worked?

And I really hope you have tried N-Hexane or pjgibbs is probably going to snap .

Mark.

I saw an adhesive remover at home depot, anyone tried one of those?

You know there are a lot of citrus based removers. One type I can get from an autobody across the street, smells like orange juice and will clean tar, cauking, grease, almost anything off your hands. Not sure if thats safe to use on an lcd and I would NOT reccomend using anything on your lcd without first asking mark.

I spent all my money on getting my CO2 tank filled and a mini fridge.

Ice cold beer on tap. ZING!



ive tried ammonia, windex, acetone, water, goo gone.

Tried the wet sponge for 10 hours. Water does not migrate far between anti glare layer and polarizer. Anti glare layer directly beneath sponge separated very easily. I have one more piece of polarizer with anti glare left and will use sponge that will cover nearly all of that piece. I removed the sponge three times during the day and wet and squeezed out most of the water before placing back on anti glare side. This prpcedure does not require a great deal of water to work. Polarizer is in much better shape then full water dunk (dunked piece curled up). If this next one works as well as I expect, I will be trying one of my sharp lcd's that is still in its frame. Working all weekend so it may not be done until Sunday or Monday. I will try to test the piece every two hours to see if the time can be reduced.

What did you choose to peel up the corners with? Great to hear you have had similar success with the technique. Just to be sure, you don't want to remove the polarizer from the panel first. It seems better to go long on the soak than short, as long as only the anti-glare surface is being permeated.

If anyone is going to try this (still risky at this point) just make sure if nothing else that you have full control over where that water goes. Only on the anti-glare surface.That must be some incredible glue they used. And all that water didn't soften things up at all.

Mark.

can you guess what this is......

should I soak with water or should I strip it....hum

mark,
This may have been answered already but do you sand the ag before puting paper towels with water on it?

If you have any guts at all, I would say water soak all the way. But of course the applied technique. No dunk. .

Mark.

I used just my fingernail to get the corner started. Once it was up the rest came off very easy. I will test one more piece, and if it goes like this last one, I will be removing the anti glare off the Sharp panel with the polarizer in place. The sponge works very good at keeping the water under control. I am going to try the last polarizer piece I have without rewetting the sponge unless I see it is not working. I will try something new to me, patience.
Mark

Makes very little difference, but for the fact that the anti-glare will be weakened. Believe it or not that is a bad thing. You want it to come up in as few pieces as possible (it is frustrating picking those corners up).

Sanding may also screw things up a bit, as some areas will be permeated before others. You are best to just let it be.

Remember: Only let water on the surface of the anti-glare. I did not let a drop go anywhere else. Who knows what would happen if it did (though I suspect not a whole lot, but just in case).

Make sure the towels have a good sharp edge so you can snug them right up close to the edge line (but not so close that water runs a risk of seeping out and spilling over the edge). Paper towel (multi-ply) should work beautifully. Fold over a couple layers.

And of course, make sure the towels are saturated, but not dripping.

And lastly, if in doubt ask questions .

Mark.

Stripper .... $8.99
Spatula .... $1.25
Rags .... $2.50

Stripping antiglare with H20 .... priceless (and free!!)
Can't wait to test it out on Monday.

If any water gets over the edge, I would pull up the towel, Dry all the surfaces up, and re-set the towel.

If need be, you can recharge the towel with water by just dripping some water into the center. It will spread out.

If you have any apprehension, maybe try just a small corner first (but I bet things will be fine).

edit: Sonic: there's some things money can't buy. fo-...

Macdo-nalds -budadah buh bah baaaa. I-... .

Mark.

Does the goo-gone have an ingredients list?

one way to look at this is Ive got 2 shots at this, my 8" hami which is decked out in tin foil at the moment just waiting for my decision. And my 15" samsung so I could try stripper on one and saturated towels on the other.
I dont know why but water and electronics I feel worse about than stripper for some reason....but Ill get over it....

I dropped my iPod in a lake once. I'm glad it wasn't paint stripper.

Are you going distilled?

You have to realize that the water is not going to be touching the electronics. If it does, you have done something very wrong. You should be surprised by just how easy it is to control the water with paper towel. The anti-glare actually helps it to stick down where it should be (more surface tension). It's water all the way.

Make sure that the foil doesn't hinder the peel up or prevent you from seeing if water has snuck off.

edit I can't tell you how enjoyable the process is if things go anything the way they have for me. The surface you get is perfect.

edit and know-one has tested any Hami polarizers.

Mark.

I put some stripper on this panel timed it 30 min and then squeegeed it off down to the polar worked sweet.Im going to test it with water/paper towels and see how the rest comes off.....

mark,
so is leaveing the towels on 24 hours worse or better than say 6 or 10 hours
I would want to make sure the ag comes up and does not pull up the polarizer
or rip it

never mind I found the answer 12 hours...

Both methods? You are a risk taker . The duration has not been established. 12 hours worked well for me but it may have been overkill. You definitely don't want to go too little, because then you will be pulling up on the PVA if there is a dry spot.

edit and obviously you can sample it over time.

Now that you have an exposed section, the water will not permeate evenly. My tests have shown that this should be okay, but just so you know you are probably best to keep the water off the stripped area as well.

Again, keep that water only on top of the anti-glare. Don't let it get into the edges. I know I don't have to repeat, but it is the only thing we know can go wrong.

Mark.

Well gents, I took the plunge today...

Antiglare Removal

Method: Water Soak
Solvent: Distilled H2O
Dampener: Paper towel
Time: 12 hours

Monitor: 15" CMV 529A
Lenses: Standard Lumenlab triplet and fresnels
Screen: DaLite pulldown with 1.1 gain

Procedure
Per Mark's instructions I laid the panel out, cut a paper towel so that it covered the entire surface of the panel, dampened the paper towel with distilled water, drizzled more water on 2-3 times and waited, impatiently, for 12 hours. Pulled up a corner with an Exacto knife and the antiglare sheet come up in 3 big pieces, offering only minor resistance. The peel took maybe 5 minutes. Only scary part was not knowing at first if I was getting just the antiglare or the polar bear too.

Did I mention that this is the panel from my PJ...?

I'll take some pics tomorrow but after a very quick 15 minute projection session, my intial impressions are:

The Good
- Noticeably brighter overall, with whiter whites. Hopefully 'noticeably' is a sufficiently vague term to keep the Rox Police at bay

- While still not really watchable with all the lights on in the basement, the image is bright enough to be seen, which was not true before. I'll try just a lamp tomorrow.

The not so Good
- I'm now able to see the fresnel lines in the image, which I did not see before. I'm assuming that the antiglare was blurring the image sufficiently to hide them previously. Any thoughts on correcting this, perhaps my fresnels need to be moved a bit?

Summary
Definitely worth doing, the procedure was really quite straight forward and I never felt like the panel was in danger. Again, the only scary part was the first corner of the antiglare, after that is was a piece of cake. I'll post pics tomorrow.

Thanks to Simul8r, Elken, Mark and everyone else on the forum for their experimentation and their willingness to share!

Greg

Sweet! . Any tests on what time to use, or did you just leave it for 12 hours?The theory right now is that the panel needs to be moved further ahead, such that the fresnel before the panel is further from the focus of the panel. Are you using split optics?

Maybe you have some before and after shots? Detail, color, and contrast may improve as well.

Mark.

Sounds like we've found ourselves a solution. It was worth the grim sight of Sonicwonders display.

I'm probably trying this tommorow.

(edit) Wait, I need to be fair. Sounds like mark found us a solution. My hats off to you, mark. (sonic wonder just take off your hat...just your hat! oh no...NO NOT AGAIN!)

.

But please be cautious. Only a few panels have been treated. It's a big one to know that the CMV takes to the treatment, though .

Mark.

Awesome! This is indeed a good sign. Did the glue stay with the a/g or did you need to clean the polar bear at all?

Well folks, it looks like I might be doing a lot more stripping soon ... err .. of my panel. I realize more tests need to be done but my HATS off to you Mark. And the rest will come off in a private showing for Mikau only ... hehe

Ok


tests concluded..

1. sample in water 13 hrs,,, a/g lifted off,,, hmmmm grainy structure left on polar,,, also will tear at 45 degrees,,

with all my other methods never had this grainy effect with polarization crystals.. also it seemed to follow the peeled angle from panel...

I think the immersion in H20 has damaged the crystal structure of the layer

2. pure meths,, 30 hrs odd later,, min effect, but can see where it had seeped thru, due to swelling in random places

but where peeled asolutely no grain effect,,

3. 50/50 mix similar to above but peeled with great difficulty

partial grainy fractureing,,


I am of the opinion that the water is possibly by far the most aggressive at attacking the whole structure of all layers, and also especially the polarization layer itself..

with other methods the removers are agressive maybe to us,, but not so much than panel materials,,

mind you the difference's are, much less time of exposure..

also another thing,, the remaining polar is very brittle, now these samples were off the same panel from my first tests 4 weeks ago..

and the piece which was about 6 inches square, is very plyable and has absolutely no grain effect.. its feel is silky and much like a piece of cellophane, to describe it,, I can roll it up on a pencil, with no effect..


EDIT:::: I looked at structure of polar coating under a microscope,,, its broken down
my guess are the bonds between molecules have been weakened due to the water. '''may have changed the electron shell where the bonds occur''',,
EDIT::: maybe needs to be charged one way or other to stop this effect,,, negatively charged to stop electron transefers ,,,, gezz forgotten all my science here ,, hehehehhe
clive....

Urgent NOTATION::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

do not remove rear shiny polariser,,,

I have found a very wierd,,, effect after water dunking,,,

acts like a photographic polarizer,, only goes to purple extiction,,

AHH hell it's time to clean my optics anyway, and since you all have found a safe way to remove the anti-glare with damage to the polerizer, I think I'll give it a try so lets see if I have this right the damp towel should be placed on the side of the monitor facing the lamp correct.

yeah, not worth projecting ..also...just from having seen polarizers from a couple of panels I would say their ..extinction?(when they are crossed at their darkest?) is not very good..however their parallel transmittance is higher than the panel polarizers(at least to the naked eye) which reminds me of a chart I saw some where(possibly linked from the vikuiti site, theres one type of polarizer that 3m has that is only made by an indonesian company I believe, anyway following links they had a chart showing that as the extinction went down(got darker or smaller) the transmittance went down also...at like 38% it was .01 at 43% it went up to .1 at 30% it was .001 at 23% it was .0001 ... see the trend..makes me wonder about the 43% polarizers..transmittance might be higher but they might have a higher minimum transmittance also..I'll see if I can find that link...

Oztang65, any luck with the replacements.

Mine have still yet to arrive.

Well I have found a LCD that the "rag method" doesn't work on.

HP L1530 15".

I applied the paper towels , let it soak for 12 hours adding water when needed. Tried to lift up the edge , no go. It just fleked off.

Keep in mind this panel looks terrible from all the tests done to it :




As you can see on the corner the antiglare is just flaking off. The same as if you removed it without soaking in water.

Someone needs to keep a list of which panels work and which don't.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just an extra note here. The glue under the antiglare that is flaked off , won't come off with water, it took denatured alcohol to remove it.

Mark do you think a paper towel soak with de-natured alcohol or mineral spirits woud be better for this panel ?

I picked at the edges at 6, 8, 10 and 12 hours. I was not very agressive at 6, 8 & 10 but figured that patience was a virtue in this case. After 12 hours the AG come off fairly easily but there was still moderate force necessary to peel it off. Given that, I don't think I would have been comfortable peeling it off any sooner.

I'll see if I can get a good enough picture to show the fresnel lines and then try moving the panel forward. Any idea how far I need to go?

I have split optics, so if I move the panel I'll still need to maintain the current distance between front and rear fresnel, right? That's going to be a challenge for me, my front fresnel is center pivoted on glass door hinges, attached to the the frame that the lcd is on. I'll experiment some and keep everyone posted.

You guys are going to kill me but I didn't take any before pictures, I didn't think about it until after I had the panel soaking for about 4 hours...

There was a minimal amount of glue left on the surface of the polar bear, which I wiped up with the paper towel soaked in distilled water. That took just a couple of minutes with minimal pressure et voila! a nice shiny, transparent panel

Greg

Just remember Sonic when you get all liquored up that this forum is "EXTREME MODS" not "EXTREME BODS".

oookaayyy......12 pages after 3 days, nice...

Mark: wow, figures YOU would come up with something so simple such as water soaking. However, based on Elken's findings of the polar under the microscope, I think there may still me an issue as far as damage to the polar's structure. Perhaps an accurate time duration for soaking before polar integrity is compromised? Not sure, but then again gregeast was successful. Just a matter of time to see how his polar stands up the heat and UV of his lamp. In the meantime, when I get home I'll put what antiglare/polar piece I have left into a container filled with stripper and let you know how the polar (PVA, right?) stands up to an acid soak. I would guess everything thing made of plastic as well as the adhesives will deteriorate leaving the polar bare, but I'll let you know.

Also, I just received the sample of polar from moniserv.com.. Cheap bastads, they gave a uneven cut portion not even wide enough for a 3 inch square!...hehehe, wishful thinking. Anyways, the polar is quite rigid, almost credit card like......OK....just found out the bad news, although, the polar seemed clear straight through I found out that it was laminated with some protective clear plastic film on both sides. Pulled easily off on one side revealed Antiglare while the other side revealed kind of tacky texture. Putting the sample up to a working panel I twisted it to see how many degrees until absolute difference and my guess is 90. Well, at least now I have a fresh antiglare/polar sample to experiment with.

sim

p.s. any news from you ladies who have ordered your polar yet??