I guess so...

Okay Mark, we'll make this test public. I've got a camera for a while (borrowed g-friend's) - so I'll take pics. I thought it might be nice for readers to share in on the process of stripping the polarizer- this is a first for me!

First off, my polariser was bonded to the substrate quite well, and took some doing to flip up. I had to pry all four corners before I got one that would budge with the help of a razor underneath the edge.

Click to view attachment

I was expecting it to be like a sheet of overhead transparancy, but this stuff is quite stiff. In fact, it keeps its shape when you take pressure off it.

Click to view attachment

In an effort to save polarizer material for more testing, I attempted to score the piece and break it off - bad move. I ended up scoring the glass substrate and the polarizer didn't come off any easier. I ended up using a pair of scissors.

MORAL: be careful prying up the polarizer with a blade, if the glass substrate scratches, you're screwed

Here's a pic with the piece cut off:

Click to view attachment

I'll use this triangle for the water dunk test. As a point of interest, the glue feels kind of like that 3m clear spray adhesive. It retains its tack and I was able to seat down a portion of the polarizer that had been lifted back onto the substrate.

well, i've gone and done it... used the "stripper" method for removing a/g on my CMV-520D... not such a success... it was not nearly as easy as others have had... I ended up going with full frontal nudity (sans polarbear if you will). I have salvaged a piece of original polarbear to cover the standard LL triplet (currently soaking in mineral spirits to remove what's left of the a/g) to use with the LCD reversed... so I will have to watch everything backwards for a while until I manage a replacement polarbear... oh yea, made sure I had "backup" in case something went *really* wrong.... Samsung 730B. ... when will this "project" ever end !!?? ("never" is the answer here )

Yeah I noticed that right away. Really stiff. I used a utility knife on my 512N and found it came off pretty easy.

Not really. Because you will still need to remove the polarizer and the glue without damaging the panel. The problem is that stripper is not completely PVA safe. It is going to work fine (by user accounts) if you get the job done quickly. It is that limitation, as well as the unforgivable nature of stripper and potential long term damage, that we are working to solve.

Just be patient. We will know the best way of doing things soon enough. Don't do anything harsh. Your posts worry me that you are not in complete understanding of the layers we are even dealing with.Sonic is just trying to get a test corner to do some stuff to.I had to really work to make a scratch. Nice .

Mark.

OK i got some more squares, what do you want me to try to remove the glue?

off topic
If anyone is an expert with voltage division and phasor domains of RC circuits for finding poles PM me (worth a shot)

You may suffer the grain limitation of solvent removal. Will be nice to see if the grain projects.

Mark.

I'm not! Thats why I keep asking questions. I continue to read this thread every day but its moving faster then I can keep up with so I'm forced to ask questions about stuff that may have been discussed already.

As far as safety... by saying "is it safe to apply the stripper after polarizer is removed" I didn't mean is it not a risky process, by "is it safe" I meant could it damage the polarizer? Scrapping the polarizer when its glued down its secure, but when its not it might rip or whatever. I just meant is there a greater risk of damaging the polarizer when stripping the antiglare when its not still on the surface of the lcd, then when it is still glued to the surface?

Gadget, what exactly went wrong? It would be helpful for us to know.

If it is just the glue from the polarizer laminate to substrate bond, then soak a paper towel in water, and lay it over the glue. Don't let any water seep into the edges of the piece. You only want glue on the surface. You don't want the grain effect.

If you are talking about how to remove the anti-glare you should try completely submerging one piece in water. Soak it for long enough that you can see the grains (the limitation) and then try peeling. If it is not really easy, then soak it longer. This is probably going to be on the order of 5 hours of soaking or even overnight.

Mark.

And I am telling you the total danger is about equal. On the one hand there is zero chance of stripper damaging your electronics. On the other hand, you still have several new steps that can go very wrong.

Mark.

so water is supposed to remove this glue?

Mark

two hours later oh all samples have adhesive still,, as per peeled off glass

1. pure water,, no effect yet

2. pure meths,, adhesive,, wiped it off with ease.

3. 50/50,, hehehe halfway effect.

so far no other effect on laminate..

clive..


EDIT: methylated spirts..

Pure meths stands for?

well... that's a good question... i'm not sure is the only answer I have at the moment. I should have taken pic's, but (unfortunately) I did not... but basically used the stripper on the panel for about 15 minutes... a/g did not really want to budge, used a 2nd coat, this time for 30 minutes, this time several places started to peel, but only small spots. Tried a 3rd and 4th coat letting sit between 25-35 minutes... was making progress, but did not see and end in sight. My thinking was that either the stripper I was using or the a/g treatment was a different composition making it much more difficult. Others had indicated that it simply scraped off and that was the end of it, just not the case for me. I was able to get the polarbear off without too much difficulty. Plenty of adhesive left on the glass substrate, but just used my fingers to work it off. I still have not checked the panel, but I don't think there will be any damage... unless I really did something bad that I wasn't aware of. Will have more info tomorrow....

yes. I should be able to salvage two other pieces to cover the triplet, so all is not lost on this one experiement. perhaps another in water... perhaps soaked overnight ??

Now we're talking . Only as an experiment, though. The grain effect will be there with a water soak. We need to figure out how to concentrate the water only where it is needed (at the anti-glare TAC to PVA bond). My findings have been that water softens this glue (and that glue on your substrate by the way) very well. It just takes some time.

Like I said for mikelish, if you take a wet rag and rest it on the glue such that the water will not get where it shouldn't be, the glue will be soft and will just slide off in the morning. This is just my findings, though. And to be honest, I have not tried the rag technique.

In your case, you don't want the water getting anywhere on the panel other than the raised area where the polarizer laminate used to be.

Put simply: water softens all of the glues used to hold the entire panel laminate together. But we need to keep it only on the layers that we want it to soften. We also don't know what it will do to FFC's glue should it wind up there, or on the electronics. The rag idea is meant to keep the water under control.

Mark.

2 questions:

1) Did you pre-sand the a/g? If so with what grit?
2) What brand paint stripper did you use? Is there an ingredients list on it??

I guess that's 4 questions . I'm sure you'll be able to salvage the polar bear or, worst comes to worst, pick up another one at polarization.com

My interest is that I am sitting on a can of Jasco Epoxy and Paint stripper that it begging to be poured over my panel. We need to start compiling a list of brands/LCD Model #'s/Methods that are successful (very much like the LCD fcc list).

It is really strange. It goes from not working at all, to working quite well in a matter of about an hour. I am not sure why this is yet, but it could be that the solvents are in fact permeating through the TAC.

Again, it could take all night for the water to finally permeate the full distance to the glue, and then further time for it to soak into the glue and loosen it up. I appreciate you sampling at various time intervals.

I think that this should be enough time for you to at least see the grain effect. If you hold the sample up to a light but not in the direct light path to your eye and rotate and tilt the polarizer, some fine lines show up. I believe these lines are stress fractures from peeling the polarizer as they are irregular, and did not show up with a corner sample that I used (it was never rolled up or bent, just popped right up).

After the TAC is removed, you will find that by bending the sample along the polarization axis, that you can crack the PVA strands apart.

edit and I am not sure, but I think the grain may be slowly evaporating away.

Mark.

I have two panels a brand new 17" LG (this is for my next PJ with pro lens) and the 15" NEC that's in my working PJ, I want to remove my antiglare on both out I'm waiting to see a stripping methode that will not have me tearing out my hair.
Has anyone tried to use a heat gun or hair dryer to loosen up the glueI do know that high temperture can damage lCD moniter but it my be worth looking into.

Heat is supposed to loosen up the glue, but I even tried boiling a piece and the glue wouldn't budge.

Mark.

you deffinatly need to pre sand lightly the ag before using the stripper.
I also think the thiner stripper works faster the kind thats made for a spray bottle
Its not that thin its very controlable.Heres what I used on my test panel

I did not spray it on I just poured it on the panel and 45 min later the ag wiped off with a rubber sqeegee

The ingredients to SIMUL8TOR's stripper are moderately damaging to PVA. We don't know how damaging other stripper brands are. Make sure that if you are willing on using a stripper this early in the game, that you at least verify that the ingredients are PVA safe.

Mark.

found this
http://www.idwlcd.com/Product/HowToUse/default.asp

N-hexane is recommended for cleaning the adhesives used to attach front/rear polarizer. Reflectors made of organic substances could be damaged by chemicals such as acetone, toluene, ethanol and isopropylalcohol.

and this

http://www.sharpsma.com/lcd/lcdguide/Care_...ng/cleaning.php

looks like it may be used in some brands of brake clean
http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ohb/HESIS/nhexane.pdf

Ive got some brake clean I will try it tomorrow on a test panel to see what it does.
Im thinking it may be good for cleaning up the lcd after using the stripper on it

active ingredient of my stripper was Methylene Chloride. 870 gm / L according to the label.

interested to hear how much prep sanding you did gadget. as ive posted before, i sanded all over with 500 grit wet and dry. nothing elaborate.

dont expect to wipe it off after only 30 minutes.

total process end to end took me 4 hours. thats 3 or 4 30minute applications and quite a bit of time touching up the edges.

efficiency of the pj is up so much i can use it with the duel 75w globes turned on at the same time!

Dan really lives up to his handle

YOU THE MAN

Dangerman,

If you move that light to the side of the screen so that it doesn't shine directly on the screen your contrast will increase significantly with it on.

Just a tip.

Hey Dangerman,, are you in melbourne?

olinda here...

clive: mitcham here - not far at all considering

phutton: unfortunatly im renting. so moving the light is outta the question. however im thinking of making a shield up to cut out anything direct being cast from it. you've got me thinking...thanks

mikelish: ill take that as a compliment lol

hope im not over image posting.....but i took these just to show the clarity/contrast/colour that im now privi to.....
if you look closely the sunlight spilling in from the window behind my screen is evident .

shots taken with my crappy kodak from the movie 'man on fire'. inherintly a dark film..... couldn't resist including a pic of denzel's very contrasty lcd watch (although i had to squeze it to make it fit in the post )

denzel - '40sec's till you experience a very firey sensation!'

anyways....have a fantastic day everyone!

Blocking a window with a PJ screen? Thats a mans man . Good going mate.

I just finally finished the wet towel on anti-glare test. It works here. Just need some people to confirm. Zero grain showed up this way . The anti-glare peeled really easy . Almost zero force. Like pulling a wet piece of plastic off a wet piece of plastic. Yes! .

This method allows a very controlled removal of the anti-glare. Water will not have a chance at getting anywhere beyond the surface of the anti-glare where I have now confirmed it will permeate through. The water will also not have a significant time to permeate through the PVA and compromise the rear PVA bond, or the substrate bond. It took a ridiculous number of tests to finally do this conclusively. Sorry for the wait.

I can say that without a doubt this is a safe and effective procedure at least with my panel. I will now try it on an actual test panel.

The procedure:

1. Get a rag/paper towel/sponge wet and lay it onto the surface of your anti-glare such that no water escapes, but the surface will remain wet for about a day. Do not let any water spill over the edge of the polarizer such that it can enter at the edges or make its way onto other parts of the panel. Press the towel down such that no areas will not be soaked. The water will not permeate horizontally very quickly so all areas must be wet.

2. Charge up the rag with more distilled water throughout the day. Drip it onto the surface. Careful not to add too much.

3. Test a corner at the end of the day. If the anti-glare flips up with the edge of a credit card then you are probably ready to go. If not: just wait longer.

4. Remove the dampener thingy of choice and begin peeling up the anti glare from that corner, pulling towards the opposite corner. This should take almost zero force. It should seem like you are only pulling a wet piece of plastic off a flat surface. If any additional force seems needed, soak again.

5. Rinse of any glue residue with distilled water.

6. The End.

This remains a test procedure, but I am very confident now that it is the way to go.

Mark.

Hey mark i pulled out the 5x5 test piece i had in water. Anti glare layer came off easy as pie, in a nice sheet. I still have glue left on the back of the polar though, no idea how to get rid of that stuff. Im out of budget for this project so cant pick up some methyl spirits.

Just thought i would confirm



This is the best procedure ive seen outlined since magic cover (low blow keep the gloves up!). No seriously good work Mark, i am very impressed.

Sweet!. This could be in the bag. Did the substrate glue soften up even at all? Mine still took some persuasion, but it would slide off pretty easy.

Do you see the grain I have been talking about? Hold up off center to a light and rotate and tilt. That can be avoided with the above towel technique.

Careful with that surface. That is exposed polarizer magic action.

edit: Yeah about that Magic Cover ™ thing. My Bad. .

Mark.

The glue wasnt coming off, i set it back in the cup and am going to sleep. Perhaps in the morning, if this works ill be watching tv backwards for a bit, this is a heck of a lot cleaner then my sandpaper acetone deal.


hey i can always make book covers with this magic cover.............................................................. sigh hahahahahah

If the anti glare is coming off with just water then I have missed something in the reading. If that is truely the case... Why not tape off the edges of the panel and lay a wet cloth on the panel for several hours and remove the a/g.

Disregard: I just noticed mikelish said it came off in a sheet... which means the A/G didn't break down, but the glue let go?

You pretty much just summarized what mark said to try.

mark:sav8or1 as novel:cliffnotes

Just blinked and then there's another wad of pages to go through No time for that now, my new polarbears have arrived

I think I've got this right, but I don't want to stuff this up so I thought I'd run it past all the experts here first. When I hold the new polar over the LCD, it has to be turned at 45° (from sheet square) to block all light. Am I right in saying that rotating it 90° from here is where I need it? Also, is there a 'front' and a 'back' to them or do they work with light travelling in either direction?

The sheets I got are 3DLens, #POA1 630x900, and 500x1000 POAT (adhesive backed), so unfortunately with a 17" screen there's only enough for 2 polarisers from each sheet (if cut at 45°). There's a bit of waste, but hopefully the result's worth it.

Anyway, it's going to take some time to set up a new rig (I'm modifying my last design) so there mightn't be any screenies for a while...

Mark does tend to write novels I was skimming the post in an effort to get caught up. Imediatly after posting I re-read your post and noticed the part about the a/g coming off as a sheet. In my profession everyone makes fun of pilots for not reading and I just stepped right into that one.

By the way: I went to pick up the MicroMesh kit today(28 dollars) and it only went to 6000 grit so i didn't purchase it. I plan to order individual sheets for $2.60 a piece this weekend. I think I will order 8000, 10,000 and 12,000 grit. and see if that does the job. This stuff is used to polish surgical blades, I think it will offer some gain. I'm just not sure how much.

As I said before, I am happy with the results of the basic projector but if some simple polishing can improve it somewhat, I'll be fine with that.

If you bring up a black screen, you want to dial in to as black as you can. Then bring up a white screen and get it as white as you can. The position should be the same, but if it is not you need to find a compromise that you prefer. Whiter whites, or blacker blacks?

Dichroic polarizers (3dlens.com) work equally well in both directions. Check that there is not an optical anti-glare coating first. If there is, you want that pointed towards your lamp.

Mark.

Mark....

I have taken another panel,, and done a complete half imersion in water,,

1. to see what effects it has entire panel both sides

2. to see if it effects the bond between glass panels and etc etc..

will leave for 2 days, but 6hrly checks,,

clive..

It will be good to know. But if the rag technique is done right, water should only be on the anti-glare.

Thanks for the test..

Mark.

yep agree, but also need to take to extreme,

cause and effect, test..

ozstang65: use this test grid to get the polarizers perfect. Just get Red Green Blue Black and White as accurate as possible.Yep.

Mark.

actually better way to set polarizer

setup windows with black background..

reduce your windows to display less than panel native..

IE if 1280 x 1024 reduce to 1200 x 900,
or 1024 x 768 to 900 x 720 say

then if able set to display centered on panel,, what is left is the natural black border of remaining panel

watch say right hand side at border of display area against outside area,

as you rotate polar, you will see outside area change grey to black,, but also take note of display area,, this will go opposite

IE: outside will be blackish, whilst inside area will be greyish, as you rotate this will swap,, somewhere inbetween is the optimum setting,,, just does not work watching on displayed area only, been there done, that,

I hope that makes sense

if you think of outside area as just natural voltage drive (nematic twist),, and you rotate polar,, you will find opt for that area,, but it still has to be balanced with inside area..

there is a crossover effect,, like the twist is opposite from display area versus the non display area....

EDIT:: if you bought 90 degree polars,, the panels are 45 degree polars

so far i have found lappies are 90 deg and lcd's are 45 deg.................

clive..

sorry guys I still hold quite a few keys to this excercise, not mentioned yet,

I will sort all of this out fully soon..

I am keeping tight tabs on the posts,,, just been busy on other work,,

as I pick things to mention,, will do so..

clive..

Thanks guys. I'm just getting ready to cut the sheets, meyer is on his way for his half of the deal....

If I cut them at 45° and leave a bit around the edge for fine tuning then this should be OK? The final angle will not radically depart from 45° should it?

Maybe another way to put it is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

concentrate on the black and ignore all colours,,,

all the colours will naturally follow suit,, (physics laws)

but there is also a very definate up and down, as well as a back to front,, and also the obvious rotation,,,

you might find when you align,, then flip it6 vertically and try rotation again,, there is one way you max out on black,,, that is the one you are after..

clive....

and oh PS,, it is very hard to find that sweet spot bay hand,, it is subtle..

mine being on the back of trippy,, is on a thread so rotation finess is easy,, thats when I picked up this crossover effect,, only then,,,

it will be precisly 45 degrees