What is meth spirits and where can I get my hands on some?

makes my original acetone, method look very tame....

but as I say whatever eats ya antiglare, floods your screen with burtsing colour and contrast...

2.7 weeks now with viewing pleasure,, who am I am to argue with myself..

bit of theory, bit of trepidation, leap of faith, short heavy breathing, then behold,,

like neil armstrong said,, as we all know,, thats what it felt like, to unleash the true potential of a LL PJ...

oh my am I revelling,,, yep...

clive..

Glad to see I am not the only one cringing

ummm usaully a hobo,, but ya will have to pry out of his hands

EDIT... and my spelling still sucks,, grrrr,, too tired...

every hardware store will carry meths...

clive..

Methylated spirits is a mixture of ethyl alcohol and methyl alcohol

edit: I think the US name for it is denatured alcohol

sounds yummy...
Thanks

Mark, my tests WERE done with the less diffusive sheet . I am really have a heck of a time figuring out why this doesn't work. If I wet the surface even minimally, it turns completely transparent.

Is there any micro-scratching with the Peek? If not, I wonder if the top skin of the diffuser is actually being levelled through some type of solvent melting action?

TO THOSE WHO HAVE TRIED MOTHER's: can you try some on a diffuser sheet and see if any scratches in the surface are apparent after you cut through the a/g?

Same question to those using paint stripper.

It appears to me that the a/g coating is very thin and hard. It polishes nicely as long as you don't completely level it - but cut through it and you get to a much softer material that scratches like mad. I guess the softer molecules just don't polish as well as those in the harder a/g layer...?

The reason I am concerned is that this may spell disaster for polishing methods. They may be effective at partially defeating a/g (as long as we don't cut though), but what we are shooting for is completete elimination.

The ethyl you can drink but the methyl is poisonous or is that the other way around? Wonder if we can separate this stuff..LOL

Ethyl alcohol is the type you drink, Methyl will kill you, although taken in sufficient quantities, ethyl will kill you as well.... You can seperate them but you need a very sophisticated distillation process.

Cheaper and easier to just buy some everclear....uhmmmmm

I can see a new thread starting. "Un-sophisticated distillation"

1. I dont read text backwards

2. No way can i clean perfectly a 4x4 square

3. I have 9 dollars and a weeks time, i should be working on my studies.

i watch HDTV on my PJ more then i watch computer movies. hd looks better then anything except for WMHD movies which arnt really movies moreover teases at the future.




I would put stripper on my panel before buffing it or dunking it in water, but hey thats just me.

Hey mike,

I dunno if you meant it as such, but your post came off rather harsh. We are pretty much all in the same boat here (save for elken who has a Samsung tree ). I've been unemployed for the last 6 months and don't have a whole lot of moolah either. Mark has been working hard to help us crack this thing open, and hopefully, we'll be able to find a solution that is both safe and workable 100% of the time. Let's work together on this and not let personalities get in the way.

If you think that gives you the willies, take a look at a perfectly good panel dumped in water. Now that's scary!


I definitely have to agree with this. It seems that the only solution that has been proven safe and completely controllable is the stripping method.

Dangerman,

What kind of stripper did you use. Could you post the ingredients. I would like to see if the stripper method if brand dependent, or if all strippers use basically the same ingredients.

Im just not a big fan of polishing something that , as we will hopefully find out within the next few days, is replacable. I also am not a fan of trying things, reporting back with less then hoped for results, and being asked questions with regards to the orientation (come on man) or cleanliness of my setup (im using acetone , sand paper, and a putty knife!). Ive fully dismantled 3 LCDs, and have trashed my entire living room in pursuit of our goal. If i could do it all over again, i would take my main LCD and use the paint stripper method while waiting for polarizers to ship.

anywho 20# tank, reg, and tap are in so im on to my next project.

Well after a lot of polishing and cleaning I couldn't get the stuff to work for me.

I sat down feeling frusterated, annoyed and dissapointed. I then got up and without even deciding to do it, picked up a blade and started prying up the edge of my antiglare, once I got the knife behind it, it was suprisingly easy. I pryed at the edges untill the corner of the antiglare was sticking out enough for me to grab it with my fingers. I then delicately peeled the corner of the antiglare back. I only peeled up about a square inch flap, turned the lcd on to see if it was still working ok. No problems at all. I didn't cut off a portion I just peeled it back a little. No image in that area unless you fold the antiglare back down.

I didn't find peeling off that small portion stressfull at all. In fact, I found it perfectly delightfull!

Honestly look at that pick of the lcd covered in goop. That would scare the hell out of me, a lot more then peeling the antiglare would. I really think that method is a lot more risky then peeling off your antiglare. Might not be but it scares me more. In fact peeling off the antiglare scared me less then polishing did!

Anyways, I've decided, no question, I'm going to go with full removal so I have a few questions.

When we replace the polarizers, do we have to peel off the other polarizer on the front of the lcd? Is there an issue with using two differant polarizers? (the original lcd polarizer and the replacement polarizer)

But what I'd most like to do is remove the antiglare layer, clean off the antiglare surface and put the polarizer back on. I was wondering, people here are applying stripper to their antiglare while its on the lcd. Couldn't I first peel off the antiglare, then apply the stripper (a safe distance from the lcd) to rub the antiglare off the polarizer, and then put the polarizer back? What about this ammonia method? You peel off the antiglare and soak it in ammonia, and it seperates the antiglare from the polarizer?

All that will be answered shortly. Just wait a few days / a week.

Here are shots of my projecter PRE-STRIP so you know what kind of quality/color saturation i expect. CMV520D , standard 400w MH and ballast from local lighting shop, and lumenlab optics kit

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

and this one is just for Mark . I like to give you a hard time.

Click to view attachment

its unclear from your wording but you do realize it was the polarizer(not just the anti-glare) you were peeling off right? and not to scare you but the first corner is easy....

excellent picture already.... what kind of screen??

BOC, lots of staples, and a 1x2 pine frame .




Wish i could use this bad boy. 15' diagonal dalite matte moterized. Picked it up for 15$ cash.

Click to view attachment

Well I assume that it probably peels off the easiest at the edge since your only pullling off a small portion. But still I found it a lot less stressfull then I expected.

Yes I know the polarizer comes off as well and thats why we need a replacement polarizer, or to put back the original polarizer.



I take it by that you mean the new polarizers should be arriving within a week. Thats good news.

But what about my question of removing the substrate, removing the antiglare from the polarizer and putting back the polarizer? Could you not first remove the antiglare and then apply that stripper stuff and put the cleaned polarizer back when your done?

Isn't there also some ammonia method?

yes, you could remove the polarizer,strip the anti-glare layer off and then put eh polarizer back into the projector.... how you strip it is up for debate.... mark even dunked one in water....upshot is, unless you want to take a chance, wait a while, if you want to take a chance, read the thread(thats what we are all doing) to find out a method you feel comfortable with....

If you remove it you will be fighting with the beast that is glue leftovers.

He is a fierce and mighty beast, one which i have not tamed.

my precious

Yes yes, I have to make that decision. But I could use some advice from people who have tried differant methods. They know more about it and therefore can make a wiser decision.

Mikau,

As someone that has read EVERY post in this thread from the begining, I can
honestly tell you there is know definite way to approach this mod.

Each LCD brand seems to have different polarizers and a different anti-glare
applied in a different way. As such it's been a gathering of info of what has/hasn't
worked, and what LCD it was tried on.

Some have stripped by hand vairly easily, others stripped best using a chemical
stripper while others had problems using chemicals and found H20 worked best.

At this stage you have two options:

#1 boldly try to strip your LCD, potentially damaging it. I don't think anyone else
has the Samsung 512 (well except me) so you probably can't garner any KNOWN
data from other testers. You can report back your findings (kind of what you have
done so far) But there isn't any "guide" to help you along (not yet).

#2 Wait a bit longer and tap into the experiences of others and take that data to
use in your testing of your LCD.

I recommend waiting for just a bit, currently several people have replacement
polarizers on order. Hopefully they will be able to work with the existing
polarizer that isn't removed, BUT we may have to strip both sides, we just dont
know yet.

I am opting to wait for now, I haven't even stripped my LCD of it's plastic clothes yet.

Mik,

What exactly didn't work? I am not challenging you, only trying to get some more specific information so that we can induce some more information from your failure.

Did you project through the panel, or consider it a failure on the basis of visual inspection? My findings have been that even a partial defeat of the anti-glare shows quite a dramatic improvement in the transmitted coherence of a laser dot.

If you are able, please try to project through the panel and see if there is a difference upon projection.

I think that the general trend is going away from polishing the surface due to the difficulties in getting the antiglare completely flat without cutting into the TAC layer - BUT - as Simula8r's screenpics show - there is still quite an improvement even though we haven't fully defeated the a/g.

PS: as to the fustration - I hear ya. Been going bonkers here trying various things as well. That's why this is a work in progress - we're still trying to find the best solution so every shred of information is going to help. Remember a failure is just succeeding in finding something that doesn't work.

Mikau,

Why do you want to peel, strip and then re-glue? Kinda sounds more dangerous to your panel than just taping the edges about 1/2 cm and stripping.

I won't advise waiting on others because I can feel your anxiousness in getting the perfect picture. Have at it. Let us know your results.

Blaze the trail and we will follow (unless it fails, that is).

By the way, you can peel, strip and re-glue. You may not even have to re-glue the polarizer back to your panel after stripping. You may be able to simply attach it to your collimating fresnal. This would help with the heat on the panel.

Name a method i have not tried.


"By the way, you can peel, strip and re-glue. You may not even have to re-glue the polarizer back to your panel after stripping. You may be able to simply attach it to your collimating fresnal. This would help with the heat on the panel. "

Yes, someone else try this and observe for glowy edges. Similiar effect using square in front of (or before have it anyway you want) with split optics. You will have an image, but perhaps not perfect. Please try if you will and see if you can confirm this result.

screaming incoherently at your lcd hoping that the scathing language occasionally inserted into the incherency flays the anti-glare off> (without damaging the polarizer of course)

You crack an lcd in half pulling too hard, and thats the second thing you try!

When elken did this he attached the polarizer on the triplet side of the panel. I think he eventually figured out how to get rid of the glowy edges and is now enjoying his non-glowy pj with the polarizer still attached to the triplet.

Mikau would be removing the polarizer facing the MH bulb (I think). So he will be the first one attaching the polarizer to the collimating fresnal as far as I know. It will be good to see the results if he does it.

Well, I don't think Mikau has a camera so we are unlikely "see" much

If i attached the polarizers both on the same side i would have no image (much less a glow edge one).

Elken uses his projecter with the anti glareside facing his triplet resulting in a horizontally mirrored image (telepromter mirror anyone, and dont ask ive tried it).

Elken uses joined optics not split (tried).

With unsplit optics TRIPLET MOUNTED you do not experience "glowy edges" which im believing to be caused by the polarizing effect of the fresnel lenses (tried and confirmed). If you dont believe they polarize in some manner, remove a polarizer and drop your LCD in the projecter and notice a slight image visable in the corners and edges.

I have as we speak a polarizer attached DIRECTLY to the collimating fresnel. Which is why i clearly asked for someone to see (perhaps mikau) if they observed the same effect. Its how ive been watching tv for the last week.

Maybe my english is just poor. It feels like im talking underwater on here.

Man, I gotta tell you - stripper is looking better as the days go by. I might take the plunge before week's end. I'm gonna also soak a piece of polarizer for an extended period of time in the stripper to see if it gets horny ...errr ... I mean starts displaying any sort of breakdown.

I'm done with polishing approaches. The tolerance of that a/g surface is just too thin to get it flat without eating into the TAC.

Mark: I have a theory about how the stripper is taking off the a/g. I remember simulator saying he used 80 grit sandpaper to roughen the a/g surface. According to my experiments with polishing, 80 grit wouldn't cut into the a/g, it would cut straight through it and into the TAC. I think that the stripper is actually dissolving the TAC layer and, with it, off comes the a/g.

My only concern in this case would be the protection the TAC layer is providing to the polarizer (which according to elken is quite resilient). I already know that PVA is fairly resistant to UV radiation. I think that the only purpose for the TAC layer is to provide a substrate for the a/g and to protect the polarizer from mechanical damage (scratches) during the assembly process. I would imagine a damaged TAC is far cheaper to replace than a polarizing sheet. This conjecture is leading me to believe that the stripper method may, in fact, be "safe" ( well as as safe as something like this can be). If an extended dunk in paint stripper proves to not damage the polarizer, I am one step closer to doing this on my projection panel.

SOMEONE TALK ME OUT OF IT - PLEASE!!

*tongue in cheak* Oh please no dont do it no........

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...indpost&p=96366

I am willing on betting that both your anti-glare sheets are of the same composition. You will likely have a very different experience with a test panel. PEEK works.

I don't think it is very likely that PEEK is dissolving the surface. It is meant for all metals. There must be an abrasive in there.

I think you may be jumping the gun on going for a removal right now. Too much has been learnt in the last day. For instance, jonjandran has a different anti-glare composition than what I have. If water won't permeate, then stripper may not either.


I never recommended dunking anything in water for anything other than test purposes. Please don't read this like an instruction manual. All I have said is that water does some of the things that we need it to. Some things that we don't want it to. It does more than we expected it to. It shows promise. It reacts with the acrylic glues better than any solvent used. I felt that was worth sharing.Realize that I am not likely going to ask you a stupid question more than once. I think the meaning of my question has been lost. It is the only way to explain these answers, and every other answer I have gotten to it's regard. I am not asking anything about panel orientation. I am pointing out that you have 3 extra panels lying around, and all have 2 polarizers. One of the 2 polarizers is on the back side of each panel. It inherently has no antiglare. If you were to peel that off, then clean up the glue you should have a 15" anti-glare removed polarizer to place at your panel. It doesn't matter what side of the panel that polarizer needs to go on, so you can keep your panel oriented however you like.

The only answer above that seems to apply is that you cannot clean up the glue. I think I have found out how. It's why I asked again. The process is free.

I asked Elken the same question. He responded that he did all his tests with the rear polarizer from another panel, but in the end opted for his anti-glare removed front polarizer. I would imagine more for the sake of demonstration and testing than anything else. There is also one less TAC layer.No different than without a water soak? I agree, this must be due to a different anti-glare structure. I am betting you have the polycarbonate TAC. This helps prove that the water is permeating through the TAC, and not just entering through the edges. Even if you're anti-glare sheet is made of TAC, apparently some have an impermeable sheet laminated overtop. You may have needed to lightly sand through this sheet first. Thanks for giving it a try .Yes. That is exactly what Elken did. The problem with that method is that you have to remove the polarizer from the panel to do it.

Ammonia is not the way. Mineral Spirits or water should soften the bond up without damaging the PVA.

The exact process with anything other than stripper is still being established.The LG polarizers have not yet been matched in specs by any of our 3rd parties.

Mark.

"I am pointing out that you have 3 extra panels lying around, and all have 2 polarizers. One of the 2 polarizers is on the back side of each panel. It inherently has no antiglare. If you were to peel that off, then clean up the glue you should have a 15" anti-glare removed polarizer to place at your panel. It doesn't matter what side of the panel that polarizer needs to go on, so you can keep your panel oriented however you like.
"


Yeah i was making 4x4 inch triplet sized squares for testing. So unless i can turn this swiss cheese result into a hole free sheet im doomed!


To quote myself :
"I havnt noticed a big difference in the polarizers from all 3 of my LCDs. Ive put a square from each one on my stripped panel and as long as you get the orientation correct (duh) its all the same. Not really the best test environment to determine such a thing beyond the naked eye i will admit though. " -page lower80something


you can compare that to whatever pdf LG has to offer, its the same result, inconclusive. no packages arrived today, grrrrrrr.

YES! Wow. You have cut all 3 of the panel polarizers up into squares? DOH! FWIW, I mentioned earlier you can probably get away with puzzling those pieces back together as long as they are out of focus (like on the fresnel as opposed to on the panel).

I'm satisfied now as to what the problem really is. Thanks .

Do you have any full sized anti-glare sheets left? I wouldn't cut it up.

You really should try the water technique.

Start by soaking just a small section so you can see what I am talking about. Just a 1" x 1" piece in a glass of water. Let it soak for 6 hours or so, and then I think you will find the anti-glare will peel off super easy. The leftover substrate glue will also just slide off. The issue with this technique right now is the crystal grain effect. Would be nice to see if it projects.

If the grain effect is not an issue on projection then I think you will agree, the technique is perfectly recommendable as is right now. I will continue working to find a way to concentrate the water only where it is needed, so the grain can be avoided entirely, and this can be done while the polarizer is still bonded to the panel.

It would be a huge help if you would give this a try. If you have samples of each one of your panels anti-glare polarizer, you should simultaneously try a small square from each. Again, don't make a square from a complete sheet if you have one.

The key is to let it soak long enough. If you have any problems removing the anti-glare in one sheet, it needs to soak longer. It is also possible the anti-glare is not compatible with this technique. This is why I suggest you try all your anti-glare samples from different panels. One is bound to be compatible.

Mark.

I knew it! All you have to do to get accepted in this gang is peel off your antiglare, and you become a brother. I come back and see my name mentioned 5 or 6 times!



Well I might wait till the new polarizers are tested and tried. But I might loose patience before then.





Both the appearance of the lcd and resulting projection showed a virtually unoticable projection. Lcd appeared shinyer but I purposely left some of the lcd unpolished so I could compare. Could make out no differance whatsoever. Keep in mind I didn't have any buffing tools and had to do it by hand, also I only did it for a little while. I don't know if your supposed to do it for three hours or something. I got a cloth rag applied the polished, rubbed it in for a few minutes and then wiped it off with a dry cloth. Repeated several times. Looks slightly less fuzzy but I could not make a definite statement of whether it made an improvement or not. Neither in the lcd or the resulting projection. Tape makes a killer improvement.



First I never said I wanted to reglue. I was thinking just mounting it directly behind the lcd. Not glueing.



HAH! So you CAN peel off the polarizer, strip the antiglare, and replace the polarizer. But HOW? How was it done?



Hmmm, yup yup I'd like to try it. But do you mean attaching a new polarizer or the original polarizer to the collimating lens?

Couldn't we place the polarizer right back where it was without actually glueing? Couldn't we just tape it back in place?

Yes you could tape it back in the original spot,
however, this is the effective focal plane, so any blemish, any dirt, or marks, will show on your final projection.

clive..

I will give it a try before i sleep. Ill go with at least 5x5 as 1x1 may be easier to peel off due to size alone, not as much the water.

Ok, so its a matter of cleaning then.

So how should I remove the antiglare once I remove the polarizer? Stripper? Soak it in ammonia?

I've got plenty of ammonia left over in my house cause I used to use it to kill roaches. ("used to" because it worked )

Thats what I did, works perfectly. Thought I mentioned that earlier.

Cool. I mean it makes sense, thats where it was in the first place. How did you get the antiglare off of the polarizer?

I used Acetone but it pitted down the sides of the polar so it has to be replaced unfortunately. I'll be trying both the 3dlens adhesive and non-adhesive polars, should be arriving today.

meyer2

are they actually pits or are they islands of a/g or adhesive?

have a real close look with a maginifier if you have one

I had similar prob with BenQ one,, mind you also had pitting too,, but due too contamination on reverse side whilst scraping,,,

clive

sweet meyer2 (we had the exact same problem, and temp fix), i thought my 3dlens shipment would make it today, perhaps tomorrow

I responded here. Please be sure to read every post.

Stripper is the only chemical that can be used easily, and that has an apparently proven process. It is still not without it's worries and unknowns. Nobody has even time tested a section of exposed PVA coated with stripper.

Mineral Spirits and even Water are PVA safe solvents (no pitting for instance) that work too, but the exact process has not been established.

It is also safe to say that not every process is going to work on every panel. Just make sure to read everything, and be patient. This thread may be long, but it evolves quickly. If you cannot wait, I would just call around for a can or tube of PEEK. It is your safest possibly hazardous way to go. It should give you as much improvement as tape, without irreversible damage to your panel. You will not want to remove anything from anything when using PEEK.

Mark.

The newest approach is soaking in water. Do NOT use ammonia or acetone for a soak, it will eat the PVA.

I'll make a note of that.

So, Mark, it is safe to use stripper when its not still on the lcd?