According to your list Methelyne Chloride is OK with PVA. That is usually the main component in paint stripper. Very nasty stuff.

Fantastic! Independent verification. I wasn't sure what was in the paint stripper but it seems like we may be on the right track here. Excellent work Sim!!

Incredible! . Benzene, Benzol, and Mineral spirits are my favorites. They are all Green and E.I'm only an (unpaid) employee of SIMUL8TOR .Could be the case, but worth a shot if it is of no value.Give it a go. I remain confident that a polish technique can be adapted (now that it is confirmed the back side of the anti glare is not mottled).I think so. Nobody has tried, but the effect should be very similar. I tried tape and it was the perfect exaggerated example of what we are doing.

You definitely are not ignored. And those glove specs are going to be insanely helpful. I just somehow forgot to lay down a reply in all the craziness .

The Ammonia's show poor all around. Explains my luck with Ammonia.

SIMUL8TOR: is there a contents list on that can of paint stripper?

DeathRay: Good find. It has a G rating, though. With that many choices I'm sure you agree we should go with only Green E's.

Mark.

And the confimation process is dead simple. Take some small squares (2cm x 2cm or so) and place them in jars of each of these chemicals. Try to make sure there is some of the substrate to polarizer laminate glue left on each of the pieces. Give them 24 hours or so (the longer the better) and pull them out.

Can you peel off the anti-glare now?

Has any of the PVA (polarizer polymer) dissolved?

How is the crossed transmittance?

How did the plastic polarizer protector hold up?

Is the substrate glue gone/softer?


EDIT: Once the best one here is chosen we need to soak a complete panel and see what happens.

Mark.

If any of you guys are students who have access to a chemistry lab with these 'E' rated solvents, I could sacrifice a polar bear and send it to you. This could be cut down into 1"x1" squares and tested by soaking in these solvents. Any takers?

EDIT: BTW, the substances highlighted in blue are experimental carcinogens, so caution would be the word of the hour here.

Benzene is at the hardware store, and mineral spirits at paint shops . Paint thinner is a mineral spirit (but I don't believe it is pure). I agree it would be nice to test every one.

EDIT: Interestingly Acetone is rated very poor . Oops.

Mark.

Ive cleaned an 8 inch section using acetone.

I feel a bit dizzy, and i can feel it lingering in my lungs.

Hmmmm, this cant be good.

Word of warning to those of you out there, acetone is beast.

Hi Mark

I did a test with cros trans

withA/G darkerned to a point veryhard to discern,, but almost black
withoutA/G was the same on my test pieces even tho I felt it was letting some thru, if it is difference may be very low

however doing by hand is lousy test.
interesting effect noted while cutting into sections, at the cut point, the raggies along cut edge seem to fracture at 45 Degrees relative to the orig shape... I now wonder if in fact the benq sheet is actually 45 and not 90,,, this would contradict my original statement last night about it being 90 degree's to line up with LCD mask (black Matrix)

Also when I did my stripping of A/G it took a lot of effect ( mixed with extreme caution )

even tho my roughing up of surface was agressive,, I only used acetone, brushed on then scrape goop, then wetted, then scrape, then wetted again, eventually I had remenants like in MIKELISH pic,, that seems to show some residue of adhesive,,
I found using a tissue dipped in acetone, and then rubbing with care, polished up surface,, now if there are particles under polar whilst doing the above , wuo end up with pinhole effect on polarizer itself.. I did this as a deliberate test to see, durabilty of exposed polarizer coating,,

it seems to have the same armour as antiglare, when trying to remove it.

but it will damage..

I feel any chemical that attacks the adhesives, will also have an effect on the very materials we're trying to salvage,, acetone, used sparingly, seems to be the best of the worst,, especially for final cleanup
and be careful not to bend or crease, as these also deform the polariztion coating..

Here is something to add to the already confusing enough mix:

http://www.lgchem.com/en_products/electrom...pola_intro.html

It seems LG has some very impressive polarizers. I bet these are the same ones used on their displays. There is a complete lineup, so they can pick and choose based on the quality they wish to achieve for that line.

MOST interesting was the fact that DRPF is not a 3M trademark. LG also has a model. Problem is, their model seems to only include the prismatic films (no reflective polarizer). I think the reflective polarizer could be a 3M only thing.

The crazy part is their specs:

43.5% transmissive,
36% parallel,
0.08% crossed.

Not bad at all.

Elken: unfortunately (according to the charts we are looking over) acetone, while it may be the best of the worst, is not the best of the best.

I'm not sure what you are saying about the crossed test. Are you finding that under intense light the crossed tranmittance has changed with a treated section?

You can find out if you have 45 degree polarizers by flipping the polarizer over left to right (no rotation). If the tranmittance changes, it is a 45.

Mark.

Sorry to flood the thread, but:

1. I figure polarizers are probably best to be peeled up such that the fold is 90 degrees to the axis. The other way and the polymers (PVA) could seperate.

2. I am still worried as to wether the PVA can be mirror smooth once it's cover is removed. The ammonia treated one I have has diffusing grooves now. The question is wether the glue filled in these grooves, or if these grooves appeared after Ammonia treatment.

Mark.

it is 45 degrees
and yes was done with 400 watts source collimated and uncollimated,,

however the ultimate test is in PJ itself,, I have several hours of viewing already under my belt, and have no problems with setup

and remember because I was the first, to do this,, acetone was the only thing that I found did the job, with the least impact, I am sure there is that one chemical which is the magic bullet,,

I think the correct approach to this problem is to

find out what the material is made of,, then find the corresponding chemical that will work on it,, ummm also the the other materials will have to be identified too. altho,, the acetone did not effect the original side that had the glue's on it, (side that was stuck to the panel itself )

to experiment with the chemicals first is back to front,, even tho I did the very same thing,,, but heheh patience was not working here,, for example resorting to using sand paper,, "That leap of faith thing"

I found a page that said this about Antiglare :

Antiglare Surface Treatments
Antiglare properties are produced by roughening the surface of the display. This roughening can be done by any one of several processes; mechanical, chemical or depositions. Chemical or deposition processes are most commonly used for displays. In the chemical process, the glass or plastic overlay to be applied to the display is etched with an appropriate solvent; buffered hydrofluoric acid for glass or an organic solvent for plastic. This removes material in such a manner as to leave a microscopically roughened surface. Deposition processes involve spray or dip coating the overlay with a solution which, on drying, will leave a roughened layer behind. A common method involves using a nano-particle suspension of SiO2 which leaves behind a random distribution of particles when dried.

Hope that helps.

[I found a page that said this about Antiglare :

Antiglare Surface Treatments
Antiglare properties are produced by roughening the surface of the display. This roughening can be done by any one of several processes; mechanical, chemical or depositions. Chemical or deposition processes are most commonly used for displays. In the chemical process, the glass or plastic overlay to be applied to the display is etched with an appropriate solvent; buffered hydrofluoric acid for glass or an organic solvent for plastic. This removes material in such a manner as to leave a microscopically roughened surface. Deposition processes involve spray or dip coating the overlay with a solution which, on drying, will leave a roughened layer behind. A common method involves using a nano-particle suspension of SiO2 which leaves behind a random distribution of particles when dried.

Hope that helps.]

I read that back when this thread started and have been trying to find it again or remember ever since. Good find

My guess is that the pitting appeared DUE to the Ammonia. Ammonia is reactive with PVA and will eat it away according to the .pdf whose excerpts were posted above. I am a bit confused by your reference to "the cover" of the PVA? It looks like Sim's "strippered" panel is glass smooth ...

Having said that, the IBM thinkpad is going to be sacraficed . I don't know if the film structure is the same as more modern units, but I suspect most of the advances will have been in the glass-sealed electronics.

EDIT: Although carconogenic, I think benzene is going to be the ticket here. That will be the first experiment. I base that upon the fact that it dissolves nitrile, neoprene, polyvinyl chloride, and natural rubber but leaves PVA (the stuff out polarizers are made of) essentially unscathed. A link to the original document I am referring to is here:

http://www2.umaine.edu/SEM/Documents/MiscT...stanceGuide.pdf

Wait, I don't think I ever received your resume...oh wait, here it is: http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?s...pic=7882&st=142
Again, Mark....I'm definately not worthy!

Thanks fellas, I'm just trying to help. Mark and Elken deserves all the credit in this. I just open a thread and offer new ideas, literally.

SonicWonder, you are definately not ignored. I'm also a fan of your PLOG. Nice workmanship and shiny finish, near commercial grade. Also, nice recording of what you went thru especially blowin up part of your controller board. Incredible that you still salvaged it. I would've given up and start all over again. Hope to see more of your post here.

Mark: I'll post what ingredients are shown on the stripper when I get home. I'm just afraid I may have not enough test pieces to verify if the polars were damaged. But, I'll check....perhaps somebody can also assist in this...would greatly appreciate this.
sim

I guess with the fact that there are 3 methods to create a/glare, the stripping method may become monitor dependant.

This would be kinda difficult Mark, cause while holding down with one hand and pulling up at a 90 is putting to much stress on the subtrate. This would be more riskier for a newbie and eventual loss to him.
sim

wait....45...90 degrees.....disregard last statement....such an idiot...

(edit) hold on, I was right you have to be past 90 when pulling the antiglare, straight up and you will crack the substrate.

I think most of the consumer panels we use are going to employ a mechanically or chemically roughened polymer film. Etched glass is used for "industially hardened" monitors - read mucho $$$$. This Si02 nano-suspension stuff is basically "microscopic sand-blasting". My prediction is that stripping the anti-glare is going to be stupid easy ONCE we find the right solvent.

Again, speculation on my part, but a good deal of this thread is!!

That's what I was getting at (poorly). I hope this is the case.Because the material that sits on either side of the PVA can vary I decided to call it a cover. As has been mentioned recently, this cover can be TAC, or a spray on diffuser, or TAC with spray on diffuser, or TAC with an integrated (etched) diffuser.

Specifically, I am referring to the film that the PVA is not bonded/painted? to.Funny enough, if it is the same chemical as Petroleum Benzine (with an i) then this is the first solvent that came up in this thread. I found a few sites that claim it is the only way to go.

Someone needs to figure out what TAC is, and what adhesive is used when an anti-glare sheet is glued on. According to our findings, the glue for the substrate to laminate bond, and the anti-glare bind are different. Why, oh why, couldn't they have been water based .

Sonic: had a chance to try your polish?

I see it as a confirmation of what I saw here:SIMUL8TOR: I don't mean pull up at 90 degrees, I mean the crease of the fold should be at 90 degrees to the polarization axis. Or, if going for a prying technique (my favorite) you should always have a glue line that is perpendicular to the polarization axis. So if your polarization axis goes lengthwise across your screen, start at the sides, not the top. Or if your axis goes from the top left to the bottom right work from the top left or bottom right corners. It's to keep the fibers from cracking apart when they are rolled across each other.

Mark.

Work commitments - we all have 'em! The Macguire's is a 100 miles south of me at my folk's place. It'll prolly be mid-week before I have a chance to test this one out.

I got some weird pitting marks on my polar. Im just going to wait for the replacement sheet from 3dlens. The triplet method just doesnt net as bright of results for me.

Triplet method? do you mean stripping method or did I miss something. By the way, you should only be using acetone in a well ventilated area. The bottle I have says WARNING: Do Not Breath Fumes.

What do the marks look like? Are they long and thin?

Mark.

yes. and some dots.


im done with acetone lol, i learned that. i would probably fail a drug test in the next few days i had so much of that stuff.

by triplet method i mean a nice clean square in front of my triplet. it just isnt as bright/clear as having it directly on the LCD. even unsplit. for me that is, elken has good luck.

Just checked out this site. Those are machines designed to largely automate the removal of polarizer films. Christmas? .

The interesting thing is that the machines apply heat to aid in the removal of stubborn polarizers.

The bottom left of this PDF shows the worker starting the edge up with what (not surprisingly) looks to be a razor. This article provides some information on how to remove polarizers.

I have purged a couple facts from the article:

1. Polarizers are bonded with acrylic adhesives.

2. The leftover adhesives are commercialy cleaned from the substrate after polarizer removal with isopropyl alcohol (IPA).
Those are the PVA polarization polymers I have been talking about.In addition to the expected degradation, if you've got any kind of aberration to the polarizer at all (the pitting you mentioned) then the image will get lousier the further from the panel you place the polarizer. It seems Elken must have some sort of protective cover on his polarizer, or applied the perfect amount of acetone to not give it significant time to damage the PVA.

Mark.

This article states:
Mark.

I found out that the supportive layers are either made of PC (Polycarbonate), as is the case with 3M or more commonly TAC (Triacetyl Cellulose).

So, now we have this layering:

Glass Substrate,
Acrylic Adhesive,
TAC (Triacetyl Cellulose) or PC (Polycarbonate),
Unknown adhesive,
PVA (Polyvinyl alcohol),
Unknown adhesive,
TAC (Triacetyl Cellulose) or PC (Polycarbonate),
Anti-Glare either etched in to the last TAC layer or sprayed on. If sprayed on the material could be a nanoparticle suspension of SiO2. Unknown what the SiO2 would be suspended in.

NOTE: I am beginning to think the unknown adhesive surrounding the PVA may not even exist. I'm thinking the PVA itself may be somehow laminated to those layers. That could be a problem.

Mark.

I think I know what's going on here now. PVA (Polyvinyl alcohol) is an adhesive. So they stretch it wet across the one layer of TAC, let it dry a bit, and then sandwich the other layer while it is still wet. It dries as one complete laminate.

When we use our solvents, we are either re-plasticizing or are breaking down the PVA such that it no longer adheres to the TAC.

The only problem with this theory is why the anti-glare TAC is the layer that separates. Maybe I just got lucky, or maybe it's because the stuff had longer to adhere to the first layer of TAC.

Mark.

A little correction for you Mark for the sake of your further research.

In this case PVA is poly(vinyl acetate). It can be an adhesive in a water soluable hydrolized form (Elmers glue) however I don't think that it has adhesive properties in solid (water resistant) form. Also the film is iodine doped...don't know what the affect of that is.

This will require more research to be certain but I thought that this might get you back on track.

Efficiency (550nm) = 100% minus 0.01% (Crossed Transmittance) of 27% (Parallel Transmittance) = 100 - 0.0001 * 0.27 * 100 = 99.9973% = greater than 99.99% efficiency

"1*0.27*0.0001" here you are doing phisically this; first you are trasmiting two paralell polarizers (27% thats true trasmitancy) and then to the output light you are making it go trhow a crossed 3rd polarizer that you are assuming 0.01 trasmitance, but this last trasmitance is false. if you take the 2nd and 3rd polarizers subsystem, this would have 0.01 trasmitance IF no polarized light was feed to it, but you are feeding polarized light to this subsystem (the first one is doing it).

by the way let me tell you this;

efficiency = sqrt [(P - C) / (P + C)] * 100

P=paralell trasmitance C=crossed trasmitance both in %

So what your saying is that possibly the PVA is laminated to the layers by heat? That the TAC may have been softened to stick to one side of the PVA then another layer of TAC heated to stick to the otherside. Then that side of the TAC is heated to accept antiglare. So by using the stripper I've eaten throu the antiglare and TAC exposing the PVA that is not affected by the stripper.

Now, since you used amonia and 'was' able to slide off the antiglare w/possibly the TAC attaced to it then why am I not able to do the same thing while soaking in acetone? Which btw has me at a loss cause as Elken described he was able to wash his film in acetone but had no issues to the plastic part behind the PVA but when I did mine some of the pitting and dimples began to show up on the test piece just like mikelish described. Is it because I had it soaked while Elken was merely brusing it on and drying faster or was the PVA's structure compromised during the 'rip' allowing the acetone to get between it and the other TAC?
sim

ok.... stripped the analyzer off my panel(had previously done it to a test lcd worked fine) ...howsomever...about halfway thru peeling it off...all of a sudden it became ridiculously easy ..thought for a sec I had cracked the panel...but nooooo....the glue stuck to the panel! nice shiny polarizer...bad glue on panelll acetone isn't working..trying stripper now...sigh, ah well... just anothe piece of data to add... if the stripper(sims stripper) doesn't work any other ideas????? is a Pixo 500ats

also, after I stripped the analyzer off the panel(and while contemplating the glue left behinf on the glass..though it almost seems like a seperate layer..maybe cheap glue that dried out?) I tried the stripper(sims) on the polar and it worked very unevenly... left little "islands" of anti-glare all over...which after a second application I was able to peel off with my fingernail..... polar appears to be working fine and I can salvage a nice square piece out of it

mikyd, no offense but your writting is something to desifer...hehee....so, are you saying that the stripper is working for you?
sim

(edit) peel off?....Your touching it?...if your worried about acetone fumes then I wouldn't be touching it. Use the scrapers to scoop it off and throw. Use the rags to wipe the scrapers clean. Also, these islands your talking about, you mean spots of where the antiglare was removed right? Did you sand the antiglare first before you poured the stripper? And how many times did you do the process?
sim

hey! I'm up to 3 fingers typing speed almost something has to suffer.... ;-) anyway I meant that after the final app whe there were still "islands" left on the polar(islands of antiglare) I washed off the polar first and dried it , then peeled off the islands... did it twice....polar is in pretty good shape(enough to use at triplet anyway) ...but I do see some 45 degree lines someplaces as mentioned earlier.... just trying to get damn glue off panel now.... the test lcd polar came off and left nothing on panel ..sigh...

Ok great, now how are your edges, how long did you leave it on before scraping, how big is this piece you used stripper on. This info would be needed for others to understand what they may be dealing with and for us to come up with an explaination of what happens.
sim


DID YOU SAND IT FIRST??

no sanding.... entire polarizer was used after removing from panel... placed stripper on for about 30 minutes(as on can) ...removed some of the AG but left islands of the AG(random shapes, all rounded ie no straight line islands)...reapplied and left standing about anhour or more...islands still there..cleaned polar off then was able to peel islands off...result is nice clean sqaure area to use at triplet(though will oreder replacement polar I think.. BUT removing polar from panel left glue on panel, instead of polar! on about half the panel...nothing was doen to polar before removing from panel polar was nice and shiny where glue had stuck to panel instead...cheap glue I think ;-)

PS: panel(Pixo 500ATS) was about 4-5 years old...don't know if that would make any difference

Question ,, Has anyone else got a successfully enhanced LCD up and running yet?

Gotta place an order for some polarbears. I'm not too keen on trying to clean up what I've got. I spend way too much time sucking in fumes while working on my car anyway

I like the look of those delaminating machines. Take note of the angle that they're delaminating at, appears at about 45°. Strangely enough, this was the angle that I found it easier to remove my AGP. I still think remove/replace is the best way to do it, no worrying about damaging the PB when removing the AG.

It looks as though those machines use a roller to peel the AGP. I like this, as it keeps slight pressure on the lcd while it's peeling. Maybe someone who has yet to peel their AGP might like to try using a rolling pin of some sort.

Yes, mine is working fine. The polariser has pit marks down the sides due to some reaction with the acetone or maybe I was just too aggressive with the scrapeing.

Anyway, the contrast is lifted dramatically and you are right elken about the colours, they are more intense, not that there was anything wrong with them before.

The colour controls on my LCD and display driver were adjusted to boost the contrast and brightness but now are set to neutral values and the projection looks fantastic.

Where did you place your polar at?
sim

I just slide it in behind the LCD and attached it with tape, its sort of floating on top of the LCD where it wont obstruct the airflow for cooling.

Let us know if you find any pitting or issues with the piece you got.
sim

well to restate, what I have said before,, if you successfully recyle your original 'polar bear'

you win,,,

now another half day and night viewing TV on fusion HDTV card,,,

with lights on in room,, not blinding lights but enough light to read a newspaper by...

and total viewing comfort thru all types of scene's,, bright scene's dark scene's,, I have gotta say this wins hands down,,

I can look at this 20" crt while typing, then glance at screen and eyes dont have to adjust, it is bright enough,,

clive....

no visible pitting polar is nice and shiny(a bit kinked in a couple of places)...still working on removing glue fom panel...

Mik,,, acetone will remove it,, wet a tissue with it and then scrub it,, no harm.. it will come off...

hmmmm

taking another step of curiousity

I parted the company of the TFT LCD glass substrates,, it came apart quite easily

now so that it is understood,, the panels (glass) are bound together by a thin bond of silicon,, so

another warning is being issued

be careful not to flex panel to much or you will compromise the seal,, a minor breach, and the panel continues to function, but degradation will follow as air mixes,,

did this a delierate test to find limits..

also one sheet of glass carries the TFT junctions themselves
and the other sheet contains the black matrix mask and RGB filters

now they also seem to be actively controlled too as they have fine electrical tracks etched in glass,, ??

found extemely fine filaments of glass,, the seperators,,

hehehehe dont worry this aint further enhancements,, just seeing where things break at,,

wow, you really are crucifying that laptop.