Ok,,, after usingt the PJ now for several hours with Enhanced LCD Panel..

needed time out I will respond to those who have asked etc,, tomorrow,, I am too Fragged after spending ummmm lost track at least 7 days, till all hours and doing my normal work too..

but as I was saying,, the screen is so bight, you need a room light on just to balance out..

but strikes me as well is the sharpness of images,, the detail is unbielevable,
its like going from vcr quality to HDef, in one leap

and yes I have my 'polar bear' still hanging in front of triplet..

Mark I know you are not keen on this method, but if it is done right, it works well..

and yes I agree with you the best is gonna be putting full size replacement on lcd itself, or mounted on lcd side of field fresnel,, the latter being the prefable way..

just as another example I fired up my Hitachi commercial PJ and the LL PJ beat it hands down in every quadrant

the dualing LL PJ's will have to wait till tomorrow night,, One enhanced one not

I now dub this process (ElkenLCDenhancement)

which hitachi? how about ElCDed for short ;-) you deserve some rest, we're all grateful for all your testing(and sheer madness )

What the heck is this overiding concern with protecting people from their own stupidity!

I'm a great believer that personal stupidity is one of our God given rights. If anyone here wishes to scrap a panel on a hunch...then go at it. Why does everyone else feel bad for them if they screw up. It's their panel, their decision and their consequence.

Jeesh, if everyone had that attitude then this forum would never have existed.

This is not a critique solely on elken. It seems EVERYONE keeps repeating "even though this is successful, please don't try this..."

If some noobe walks in here, reads half a page and then goes to town with their panels, then they will learn a valuable lesson on why they should do the proper research.

Other than that....please,please stop trying to protect me from myself!

Sorry for posting too late but i jumped that post. Now I have found it really interesting.

first of all, the test image (as someone has already told you) is not white. Since you are meassuring the brightness inprovement, it is not very important (% should be fine) but i suggest you to make a new test patern completelly white.

I see you did some tests with diferent spereimets, tape, polish... you did not test it in all the squares but the result of your test shows there is an unquestionable increase on brightness (23% increase for your center test of tape).


Also let me ask you about the total lumens output, your yelowiss patern showed 115 ansi lumens on the standar setup (no tape, no polish). I would say somewhere 150 lumens on the correct white patern (stimation). Now do you find it confortable? what do you think about the overal brightness? (i always thought the average LL projector was 200 ansi lumens, personal conclusion)

Thanks for your tests.

while I tend to agree with your sentiment to an extent, I try to remember that one of the reasons I found this place(LL) so helpful is that precisely people are always saying "don't do this because..." its saved me a couple of times, but now after building 2( 5"ps1 and standard 15) I can look back at some of those and try some even if they are a bit dangerous simply because I have some experience in how delicate LCDs are for one thing..... thats something youdon't really understand at first ...though now that this thread is in "Extreme Mods" I tend to agree with you more .... but he(elken) has been going at this pretty strong for the last week or so ....

I am also protecting the LL reputation,, thru anybody misreading what is sanctioned so to speak, and what isn't..

all of this is done thru carefull steps,, and my posts have generally been short of some of the ingredients,, as I have stated before,, dammmm hard to do and post almost real time, as I have been doing.

I also agree with your point,, another reason is I want to be sure that what I have done really works,, as i feel does now...

when i have a well slept mind, I will post it all,,, then DIYer is on their own judgement..

I f I had'nt taken the first step,, this could possibly have been still all theory,, I had started this process a year ago, but discarded ot.. also had a house move shortly after,, it was simul8r who fired it up again with a simple scratch.

and so the saga continues....

Yes,

and the other point is that this forum is exclusively for those of us who want to do stupid things with real expensive panels. Elken is the peeeerrrfect example. We would all simply be talking theory if Elken had not just said "screw it" and stripped his polarizers off.

There are other elkens out there (with different names, of course) who may be sitting on their hands because everyone keeps telling them that they aren't smart enough to try this themselves. Heck, none of us really know any more than basic lcd theory anyway. So in that respect, none of us are really smart enough to be doing this.

However, that didn't prevent Elken from being successful!

as to testing

two months ago I bought a professional DVD, DVD essentials

dvd HDTV HDVD, the lot.......
even sets up full surround systems to 8.1

which has every test configuration know, to man and beast,,,

this will be used as the standard for all measurements

a proper calibration tool,, but more importantly

setting up all the driver and codec's to properly calibrated values

well then they wouldn't be "elkens" then would they ;-) anyway, as elken(and mark) have said, tis LLs' rep to take into account also , but I feel much better about being in "extreme mods" too .... hey maybe elken could get a tatoo(well it IS extreme mods after all) ...like a sun with the words "First in transmittancy" ? or "Pass me the sunglasses" ?

ummmmm


I have years of experience at doing exactly this kind of thing..

not being a prima donna,,, but i do have quite an edge,, what comes easy to me,, is not the same for the next person..

so I am being reservist... or I could have simply just done this on my own and sat on it.

so plaese give me slack to do thsi, thru to conclusion

i am getting tired spelling is crap,,,

please dont take offense,,

these process's are very radical and even the pro's in the lcd game asy nah impossible.. nut they are being protectionist too

being a prima donna now,, I have spent my life at the leading edge of technology,,

I want the next challenege,,, I have the edge at having worked in lasers.optics/image analysis/astro physics/scientific softwares/ccd imaging systems :and all of this hands on IE building from scratch prototypes.. etc etc etc..

when I was little I possin;y pulled wings off fly's and found a way to reattach them,, hehehh

This is totally off topic but I have to ask. Mikyd1954 I was just looking at your username, do you have red hair and like very colourful cloths?

DJ

Are you referring to the Beastie Boys?

oh darn,, 2am !!! bed time for me,,, should have gone 3 hrs ago,, grrrrr

darn obsessions....


ummmm Dazzzla you 2,,,, your kids will hassle ya,, umm daz remind me to tell of new lamp alignment,,, have fully lit corners now too,, unreal...

I never actually reattached wings. Bur at school I can remember tying a long hair around the necks of blowflies and removing half of one wing and taping it to my desk. This would drive the teachers insane; the blowy would continually fly around in loops. The things we do when we are young.

DJ

oh gawd not good to belly laugh when tired...

I think i might have found the difference.....are you using unsplit optics still?

I was mikyd long before he was. ;-)..literally ....sigh.... (launching into old curmudgeon voice)...why you oung whippersnappers I remember back in the day when I deleted my video dirver and managed to dial on(w/300 baud modem) and ftp'd to the driver site downloaded it and installed it..all without a monitor! ..hey you kid..get off my grass...why I oughta.... oops..time for medication

Ok tried unsplit, same result, i think i need cleaner polars!!!

are you using the anti-glar polarizer(with anti-glare still on it)? where are you placing it? triplet?

.......................... ive tried 5 different squares.

so to answer your question, ive tried antiglare on, off, on , off, on from 3 monitors.

in front of the triplet, i get an image, its just not good. its washed out and not near as crisp as just having a piece stuck near the LCD. i will take some photos for you all after class. sorry to sound grumpy, its just getting old explaining what i have tried over and over lol I tore a polarizer off my LCD, of course ive tried everything at my disposale .


no hard feelings, and I apologize Mark if i rubbed you the wrong way (maybe i should tell my polar bear that!)



PS: ordered some PO A04 from 3dlens this morning

as long as you don't rub your polar bear he wrong way...sorry this hread has exploded and its hard to keep track.... I've only done eyeball looksees on a psone lcd, no projection yet.... how close to the lcd? on it? an inch away? could it be because the polaraizers aren't matched?( unless all your lcds are same brand/type) so to summarize... you cleaned the anti glare(or taped) the polarizer from the same lcd(among others but here to ensure matching polars I emphasize it alone) and even it was not good unless placed on/near lcd? interesting ....

hmmmmm,...my 2cents, agreed in all views mentioned. Everybody here contributed if not much as Mark and Elken but contributed nontheless. From my 'scratch' and start of this thread brought these two exceptional minds Mark and Elken together. Mark and his intellectual textbook approach to the light spectrum pursuaded Elken to start again where he left off when he believed it difficult to be done, Deathray for his application of the 'watered down' scotch tape application approach. Rox with his lux meter and his difiante 'accurate percentages are critical' pursuit, Sav8r1, WaxHead,......and so on and on...This is new grounds gentlemen, LLab has been successful for having brought this concept for everybody to enjoy. This new found discovery is exceptionally a HUGE LEAP and if we don't get it down to a proper doable DIY method could spell disaster for the majority Tom, Dick or Harry that stumbles accross this thread. But I think we must continue placing warnings every so often, we are well aware of far we came and the last lengthy '50' pages is proof of what discourages others (experienced or newbies) to not read and ignore the potential descruction of their build and/or pj. Only those able and willing to experiment along with us are an exception. Its all about liability, as Elken and Mark wants to see this evolve into a real accomplished and unquestionable procedure and I'm trusting all of us are on the same page. We must continue to keep in mind that as we are all pioneers in whatever assistance we provide into this accomplishment, let's, also adhere to the responsibility that goes along with it.
sim

OK. I was going to stay out of this because I haven't offered much to this thread but to say you don't want to spill the beans because you are afraid joe blow is going to go off half cocked and screw up his lcd really doesn't hold water. LL is already an experiment. We are already doing things like stripping the lcds. That is a very delicate process which can also ruin the LL experience but everyone that joins this forum already knows that and proceeds with caution.

oh face it we're all just cranky because we have to wait an entire day till elken gets some sleep before we can find out how to take anti-glare off our pjs.... I feel the same way but hey..... we'll get there...as for me the wife and I are going to walk downtown after work and have coffee and non-pj talk ..... its only been a couple of weeks since this whole thing started anyway...just seems like forever... and heck it took me 2 months to build my pj, a day or two more is ok... ;-)

Question: We need a chemist here. Obviously the acetone approach is to drastic. I'm afraid it might also be degrading the polar while ridding the a-glare. Anybody here good with solvents that can help with this. Possibly a dipping technique similar to processing photography negatives?
sim

Well i removed the anti glare screen from a samgung LCD, hooked it up and can not see an image unless i hold the removed anti-glare between the bulb and lcd, then i can see an image, I take it i will hunt down a polarizer to place in there and see what happen from here.

And shouldn't we inform LL members that have yet to buy lcd's slated for dismembering that they can source glare-type lcd monitors that already have the antiglare layer removed, thus enabling them much more sleep than the friends on this thread.

JOE: Yep. The polarizer is bonded to the anti glare. The only elements you can remove or reposition are the glue, and the anti-glare treatment. Everything else must be in the order it was found stock. I wouldn't damage that laminate in any way until we hear if Elken has a viable solution to separate the laminate out.No worries. I am virtually positive your issue is either the expected degradation, or you have any residue on that analyzer. If you have a tiny blob of glue anywhere on the analyzer with it at the lens, it isn't going to just effect one section of the projection. The entire image will take a hit.As far as 3dlens.com goes, that's the one to get (If your monitor is small enough). I hope you used express shipping . I am going to see about creating a comparison sheet so people can see the differences.

As for keeping things secretive. I don't feel it is the right way. Any time that I print a warning about how something is not established, it is mostly to keep peoples minds open on that aspect of things so we can come up with a better solution. I used to be partially concerned. I think it was mikyd1954 that showed up and said "What's the best way to remove my polarizer" without then saying "I have a broken test panel that I care nothing about." or "I realize this is only half established, but I am willing on taking that risk and you won't see me use anything but laughing and smiling smilies in my possible failure post. And I have read and understand the process, and know all the risks, and requirements.").

But now the thread has moved, so who cares . I think someone would have to be pretty nuts, or experienced, to give this a go on a prized panel based on these dodgy instructions... At least I hope... On second though, maybe we should keep things secret .

Mark.

exactly what we would expect..let us know what kind of(and where) you find a polarizer.... what model samsung? I'm wondering if different lcds have differing amounts of anti-glare(deathray said the tape test didn't seem to help much on his, don't remember what model) all I can say is for those PSone 5" people out ther that it will help tremendously.... my other pj is a Pixo 500 and I don't imagine there are too many of those out there ;-)
ps: just for fun try looking at it with polarized sunglasses ;-)

If you have a calculator (Or similar tech) with a large screen, there is an analyzer in there you can use. May not be very high quality.

Mark.

Calling camera shops, any other idea where i can get some polarizer local ( a 6x6inch square would at least serve as a good triplet test)

Hey guys,

It occurred to me that the make and model of lcd panel may provide different results due to different design configurations. Those experimenting - could you provide the make and model info of your panel.

Just as an example, if we find as we go that two members with the cmv panels (just an example) can't seperate their antiglare or can't use the polarizer on the triplet, then we would know that the cmv models may use different materials to do the same things. This would get the ball rolling on narrowing down those options for different panels.

good idea, although we need to finish finding the best methods first.

This is a continuation of This Post.

It is intended to help in establishing which polarizer source is the best:

polarization.com:

Model: One model:

Link. Click on the image to buy.

Type: Polyvinyl Alcohol-Iodine (PVA).
Design: Dichroic.
Optical type: Transmissive.
Transmittance:38%
Wavelength: unknown.
Parallel Transmittance: unknown.
Crossed Transmittance: 0.002% (At 570nm).
Efficiency: unknown.
Transmission axis: parallel to width.
Size: 800-ft rolls. 17" (43-cm) wide.
Price: $15.00 US / linear foot.


3dlens.com:

Link.

Model: POA4

Type: Polyvinyl Alcohol-Iodine (PVA).
Design: Dichroic.
Optical type: Transmissive.
Transmittance:38%
Wavelength: 400 to 700 nm.
Parallel Transmittance: 30% (2 sheets).
Crossed Transmittance: 0.005% (At 570nm).
Efficiency: 99.98%
Transmission axis: unknown.
Size: 210mm x 300mm.
Price: $9.90 US.

Model: POA1

Same as POA4 except:

Size: 630mm x 900mm..
Price: $55 US.


edmundoptics.com:

Model: Commercial Quality Linear Polarizing Laminated Film Stock # NT38-493

Link.

Note: must be gray type.

Type: unknown.
Design: Dichroic.
Optical type: Transmissive.
Transmittance:25%
Wavelength: unknown.
Parallel Transmittance: unknown.
Crossed Transmittance: unknown.
Efficiency: greater than 99%.
Transmission axis: unknown.
Size: 17" x 19.5".
Price: $45 US.

The neat thing here is that they have greater than 99% UV absorption. Unknown if all polarizers exhibit this feature.

Model: TECH SPEC Linear Polarizing Laminated Film # NT45-667

Link.

Type: unknown.
Design: Dichroic.
Optical type: Transmissive.
Transmittance: 38%
Wavelength: unknown.
Parallel Transmittance: 27% (2 sheets).
Crossed Transmittance: average across whole spectrum 0.02%. 0.01% at 550nm.
Efficiency: greater than 99.99%.
Transmission axis: along the longest dimension.
Size: 17" x 15".
Price: $65.50 US.


3M:

NOTE A reflective based polarizer could likely only be used as a polarizer (not an analyzer). I post these specs because apparently 3M produces a dichroic version, and the transmittance here is outstanding.

Model: DRPF (Diffuse Reflective Polarizer Film) stock # 98-0440-0891-4

Link.

Type: Unknown.
Design: Reflective.
Optical type: Transmissive.
Transmittance:43%
Wavelength: unknown.
Parallel Transmittance: 83% (one sheet).
Crossed Transmittance: unknown
Efficiency: unknown
Transmission axis: 45 degree.
Size: 17" x 17".
Price: Must be purchased in a pack of ten. Packs cost $580 ($58 each).

Model:# 98-0440-0890-6

Same as 98-0440-0891-4 except:

Transmission axis: 0 degree.

DRPF also comes in 11" x 11" packs of 30 for $580 US. That is $19.30 a sheet. But not big enough for even a 15".

Mark.

Just to be clear, initial investigation shows that camera polarizers do not work so well. I agree, they may have some sources, though.

Maybe try the local high schools, or colleges/universities. Poalrizers are used in a lot of experiments. Any place that does stress testing should have some. Or science shops.

Mark.

Yeah circular will not work. Ive called every camera shop in my area, none have any idea. I will try emailing some professors at my university.

I mean camera polarizers do not have the efficiency or size needed. Camera polarizers are usually linear, but circular are needed if using autofocus.

I'm not sure why you don't just clean up the polarizers you have (as Elken has). Are they damaged?

Mark.

I was quoted at 94$ for one as well .


I feel like im 1/4 wave retarded

Outstanding work Mark on what and where to find these polars.
sim

Once everything is worked out that list should be placed alone in a separate post "where to buy polarizers" for quick and easy access.

Thanks . I just figured I had to put into one place all the factors that make this so complicated. You can see the number one problem is missing data. My thoughts right now are that polarization.com is probably still the best overall. I only say this because I deduce that since the 1 sheet transmission is 38% (the same as 3dlens.com) and the efficiency is better, that the missing crossed transmittance value must be the same or better than 3dlens.com. That and the price and flexibility.

Factoring everything (including price) makes it difficult to say.

I will add in the links to all of those product resources.

Mark.

Like you said, Mark, I think there's just too much missing data and too many questions about the data we have. I think the only way to really tell is experimentation. I hate to sound cynical, but other than the 3m stuff and maybe the stuff from edmund optics I wouldn't be surprised if all the polarizers we found are all the same stuff. My guess is there's a factory out there pumping out rolls and rolls of polarizing film that is plenty good for 90% of applications. The rest is probably all marketing .

Mikelish mentioned asking some professors about, polarizers, and I think that's a great idea. Maybe if I can get off my lazy butt I'll try and ask some of the professors around here (I go to the University of WA, very good physics research goes on here) if they have any ideas for sources of high-quality polarizers. If anyone knows where to get these things, it's researchers, right?

Just to let you all in on what I've done so far.

A casual drive around my area to find polarized window film. 4 auto parts and supply stores, 1 camera development store, and a mouth full of exhaust fumes. All I got to show is a name and shop 45 minutes to an hour that so far has polar tint thats away from me.

Tests:
I have several pieces of the a-glare in four different containers for the past 45 minutes.
1) S L X alchohol denatured
2) Zip Kleen: acetone, methanol, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Petroleum Distillate and Tuluene.
3) Easy Off oven cleaner
4) Bleach....(I ran out of ideas, and what the heck)

I have the largest piece of the a-glare sitting in SLX to melt off the adhesive and move to controlled acetone. I hope to get a nice piece to use on my overhead. Call me 'anxious'
sim

I'm a researcher!!! Still don't know jack about polarizers.

I would suggest looking into engineering (electrical) and some physics departments. Keyword "optics". Maybe some astronomy departments.

worth a try.

Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot. Great work on the polarization list, Mark.

Correct Mikau, but I believe everybody is trying to pitch in to experiment and get the right polar rather than buying the whole lot by themselves. When we find the acceptable or best one then, yes, a list should be generated showing the right polar and sources where to get them. My opinion this information should be posted in Elken's thread, LCD Panel Enhancements.
sim

That's hilarious!!

Thought you'd like that, hey what can I say..."If it gets the 'dull murky' look off my clothes...well then.." call me the anxious idiot.
sim

What questions are these?I would .I agree there is going to be a certain degree of marketing here, but polarizer quality is a competitive industry, and thus there will be substantial differences.Thanks. .

I think for the sake of simplicity, for now we need to give those specs the benefit of the doubt and say they are accurate. But eventually a 3dlens.com and polarization.com polarizer should be compared physically. And should anyone be able to track down the dichroic 3M model at a reasonable price (someone must be reselling these in something other than in packs), then it should be tested as well.

My bet right now is that the 3M dichroic model (if it exists) is the best, followed by polarization.com (risky bet) then Edmund laminated (big name, and trustworthy) and finally a close fourth is 3dlens.com.

Mark.

Great idea Tony, that too should be in Elken's LCD Enhancement thread. I also beleive there is another thread offering a list of monitors on what is tolerable as far as stripping the housing. Perhaps you can also offer your ideas and assistance.
sim

(edit)...Oh, and Sav8r1 too.

Look forward to your results SIMUL8R .

Good idea on the bleach.

Im going to try some ammonia, i just dont want to die in here of fumes


Also put a piece in the freezer lol, may as well. (maybe a layer will shrink/contract off)

got the last one sitting in a cup of goo gone