Okay. The topic is Hydrogen/Oxygen production to be used as a fuel source or a fuel enhancement. Right now I am just getting started.

This is a controversial topic and I am not going to tolerate anything that isnt respectful and straightforward. Those of you who know me will know that I rarely pursue anything that doesnt have a basis in merit.

There is a TON of misinformation, snake oil sales and myths concerning HHO production. My aim is to investigate this slowly and rationally to determine how viable the idea is.

The first person who mentions that "You can get 500 mpg and only run on water!" ...I will personally kill them with a dull spoon. If you cant substantiate it, then I will delete it. Dont post anecdotal pictures, fantasy pictures or stories of skulldugery.

The Mission is to seperate Fact from Fiction.
This is what we know so far:

• Water can be broken into component molecules of Hydrogen and Oxgen using both chemical and electrical means
• This results in "Browns Gas" ( Recently it has come to light that Brown Stole this idea, so we will now call it Hydroxy Gas. ) a mixture of H and O.
• Hydroxy Gas can be used to increase the efficiency of the burning of complex hydrocarbon fuels such as gas. It can also be burned on its own. DOT Reference.
• To a limited factor, many engines can tolerate small amounts of this gas with little or no modification.

Yes, I DO know that this a crazy thing, but my curiosity has gotten the best of me and I need something to play with.
Naturally I chose the most dangerous thing I could.


Just need a place to hold this for a bit...

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It looks like it's a thing in water.

Do I get a Snickers bar?

No,no, no. It’s half a banana bolted inside an antique car headlight.

DJ

Actually its several hard drive plates spaced by 2mm each on a non conductive core with a terminal on each end pulling 350 VDC in a solution of acetic acid and white vinegar...only thing I had on hand.
The bubbles on the right are H. The bubbles on the left are O.

Experimenting with HHO?
I had a nearly nasty accident when I was younger making hydrogen. I think I was around 14 years old and invincible. After finding out that hydrogen in a balloon makes a nice explosion when lit. I pushed my luck a bit too far. I would extract hydrogen from hydrochloric acid using pieces of zinc. The whole concoction was placed in a bottle and I would slip a balloon on top to be filled. Little did I know that this reaction gets hot and bubbles allot, maybe I did know but choose not to worry about it(read as stupid teenager). When the heated acid frothed up into the balloon it popped the balloon and sprayed acid into my eyes. I knew this wasn’t the best thing to have in your eyes so I ran straight to the shower and rinsed my eyes…
After a week with bandaged eyes, no TV , I was lucky enough to come away with my eyesight intact.

DJ

I am approaching this very cautiously. Its a very useful gas combination but it needs to be respected. This looks like a fun winter project.
Glad to hear you didnt suffer any permanent damage.

SJ

I have the Water4Gas UserManual.pdf, if you want me to email it to you.
I am very interested in HHO as well.

Been lurking here, and now ready to jump in, as I have been researching HHO production for a while myself.

SJ, google "Smacks Boosters". This is one of the best producing DIY designs out there, as well as you can buy an assembled one also. He has some good videos on Youtube under the name EletrikRide.

That Water4Gas crap, is just that.....crap. People looking to make a quick buck.

One more thing...Lengthy tirades attempting to debunk or elevate the status of the current research will result in my killing you with a dull spoon.

Links to ANYONE selling the kits will result in my scooping out your eyes, then killing you...with a dull spoon.

We are after FACTS.

So lets keep it objective and lets keep it polite.

To keep things really on topic may I suggest this instead of the dull spoon?

I too had plans to research this topic (somewhat) scientifically, and out of curiosity. I know the arguments for and against, but wanted to prove them for myself.

I guess now I don't have to, I can just read along with SJ.

Well, so far this had me looking at a bunch of videos @youtube, carry on SJ BTW, what motor will you be sacrificing to test this with?

I was originally going to see what it would do for a vertical shaft 5hp IC Gold from BAS.
But, if I can generate 3LPM I might be tempted to do an install on my Saturn which happens to have a Honda 6 in it.
I looked under the hood yesterday and I am just amazed at how well packed that engine compartment is. Could be a tough call.

Like I said before there are a LOT of Snakeoil Salepeople out there and I am looking to "separate the wheat from the chaff".

If Nothing else, I will have gained a reasonable knowledge of silly things like how not to build a hydrogen generator.


Most of my current reading involves the electrolytes used to help the process along. During the process the compounds may be broken down into their constituent components. So ANY chloride is out as is any carbonate. Salts will break down into chlorine gas. Corrosive and poisonous at the same time. Carbonates will break down to some oxygen but also produce Carbon Monoxide. Not good.

Hydroxide compounds seem to be the most promising on the base side and certain types of acetic acid seem to work well for acid based electrolysis.

The purpose of the electrolyte is to regulate the draw from the power source and enhance the conductivity of the water. In theory a well designed cell array could be run with no electrolyte or a very thin solution. Wider gaps in the plates will need more electrolyte to make up for the extra energy the power needs to cross the gap.

( Kinda makes me wish I paid more attention in Honors Chem...but all I really wanted to do there was DISTILL...)

I figure I should chime in because for my senior project in college, my team and I designed and built a hydrogen electrolizer (or electroliser, you decide). We used similar technology to that of fuel cells (PEM, or proton exchange membrane). It worked pretty well considering it was only a single cell device. I have all the reports, papers, pictures, drawings, etc at home (currently at work). I will post some relevant info when I can.

One thing I can say, is that it is a power hungry process. If I remember correctly, we were calculating efficiencies (based on Gibbs free energy of the gases and electrical power consumed) as low as 20% and as high as 40% (varies with flow rate or production rate of gases, higher flow rate = lower efficiency). We had a lot of experiments planned out to improve the efficiency (in theory), but we ran out of time.

I'll see what I can dig up...

A small engine is what I was thinking also for starters before testing full size unless it's a junk you had laying about. I see you've been researching on what liquid to use. I thought that just by adding baking soda to distilled H20 would suffice and at one point I also seen a video wherein a mixture of rubbing alchohol was also included over a stove...interesting. The 'flashback resister' (if that's what's it called) was also a good watch.

From a point of ignorance, and laziness, I was just going to use distilled white vinegar, as is used by one of those snake oil systems. It's something like 95% water if I recall. I think maybe you're looking to do a more thorough job than I was! I still might try it though. I was going to use my 86 Chevy S10 as the guniea pig. It's not running right now though. :sigh:

So one of the details for the production of these units is the scoring of the surface. Normally done by using a scoring tool , belt sanders and the like. I came up with a simpler way that cost me about 30 calories and took less than a minute...

Comparison of the disks before and after treatment.

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Do you know what the plates are made from? Are they coated?

The plates appear to be made of a stainless alloy. I cant make them rust to save my life, but they are very thin. They dont appear to be coated. Since they are hard drive platters, they have been polished to micron smoothness.

Thanks! I have some dead drives around, so if I try this I'll follow your lead and try a few.

Heres me pushing luck too far: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8dYg22eD3A

I was deaf for about 10 minutes...



Alas this won't work. Ive experimented with HD platters, after only a few hours of use the metal begins to flake off. They are indeed coated (unless you've got solid platters) but it seems more feasible to coat a light material with a thin layer of the metal than it is to polish one down.



The two main electrolytes (That ive noted) are KOH and NaOH. Im using NaOH for my cell, easily obtained in high purity in supermarkets (drain cleaner).


Anyways... my speculation is that the only gain in efficiency is due to the increase in oxygen. I would imagine giving the petrol engine a stoichiometric ratio of fuel to oxygen mix would significantly (don't kill me if im wrong, im speculating!) increase the efficiency rather than using atmospheric air (Can anyone with a good chem background confirm the plausibility of this?).

Im going to pursue the HD platters just because I happen to have them... But we can knock off that one once we confirm it. I was just given a sheet of stainless from the front of a dish washer ( BONUS!)

Now I just have to figure out how to machine it. My shop is for wood only.

The subject of the efficiency of the engine was tested by the EPA in the late 70's. They concluded that a mix of hydroxy gas injected into the cars airstream would be beneficial to the burn as the hydrogen increases the rate of travel and the oxygen gives more fuel to the reaction which results in a cleaner burn. Complex hydrocarbons are notorious for incomplete ignition and gasoline is no exception. The only reason you have a catalytic converter in your car is an attempt to complete the burn of the gases and give a cleaner exhaust.

BUT..until I can link that report into this, DO NOT take it for gospel.

My advice to anyone is to take everything you see with a grain of salt until you have proof to satisfy.
Ever notice that there is a wealth of small business manuals and 50 dollar offers but there seems to be a lack of solid, well written books on the prinicples? I have even seen books in reprint from the late 20's for way too much money.

Dont get me wrong. I think that there is always a better way to do things, but separating the facts takes a lot of work.

EDIT: Edward is right. The material on the outside is a VERY thin layer ( possibly electroplated) of metal on a base. Natrually this will flake and come off, so it looks like I wont have these too long.

If this was directed to me, I didn't link to it, and also, he doesn't just sell kits. He explains step by step how to build it yourself without buying a thing from him. I just pointed it out as a possible design idea. Also has some pretty good theory, research, and real world test results in his videos, blogs, etc. He's a little bit of a "Freak" though. LOL

Hmm i always assumed this was due to impure air. But yeah i hate how there seems to be next to no proper data on these things. All i see are whackjobs talking about overunity and running cars directly off water. They just don't seem to realise water does not burn... and if you refute with them the oil companies have gotten to you.

Nope. Just a general warning. I will viciously protect this sites harmony, even if it means becoming the antithesis of what we strive for..just for a little bit...



Not a good idea. If you reverse the flow, the lead plates will fracture. They will produce but not for long.

Not that I want to give credence to conspiracy theorists, but it is NOT in the oil company's best interests to promote clean burning, more efficient fuel. With profits being posted in the BILLIONS each year, you have to ask yourself one thing:

"If you were making that kind of money, what WOULD you do or ASK TO BE DONE to preserve a cash flow like that?"

People have done much worse for much less.

Every person has a price to do a certain thing. It may be your family, money, your life or just prestige. But if you have a FACT, please post it and lets discuss this like rational people with open minds.

I too have messed with hho by electrolosys. My goal was to be able to produce enough to use in my potato gun. I used baking soda as electrolyte (yes it produced some nasty byproducts, but less than salt [NaCl] did). I still was unable to find any good plate material that would withstand the test of time. Even stainless steel will corrode and electroplate onto the other surface. The only material that i have seen that withstands this is platinum .

SS with a good solid electrolyte like KOH will not gum up or corrode. But the stainless you need to use is 316 and you cant have any galvanzied or pig steel in the equation.

Alright...more work on the cell tonight as I try to determine if its a viable technology.

Yes. It is a viable tech. I managed to produce a liter every minute of highly combustable gas today in the shop. Explosiveness was proven and the tech seems viable as I used 2.9 amps to generate this. I have recently found some more stainless as my large sheet suddenly dissapeared..(?...No..No conspiracy...just me being disorganized...)

Our current technological state will not allow us to run a car on water...BUT..we can free up combustable gases to further the efficiency of our current engines. I have seen the first part in action and I have heard the tremendous BOOM that it can make. If you see phrases such as "overunity" or "run your car on water"..then run.

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Other wise, keep your mind open. The laws of conservation of energy will ALWAYS apply so if they claim more, then you can claim shenanigans. The reason for this tech being so dubious is the people who try to make it into more than it is. Think X-Ray glasses...and see above. Figures that the one time we actually learn NOT to trust Snakeoil salesmen, is the one time where there is a small grain of potential to help.



I will keep you posted on what I find....I can list Snakeoil and NOT Snakeoil, but I would rather not disparage anyone if I can help it.

SJ

Im unsure how if say you generate hydrogen from the vehicle, you're using energy from the battery which is conversely being charged by the engine. Doesn't sound like it would be doing anything at all.

This has oft been mentioned. Some good scientific testing should show the reality. I have my own theories about how it might be possible, but this is SJ's experiment so I'm going to wait and see how he progresses.

You have to think of this process in terms of substitution.
Basically what you are doing is using small amounts of energy to produce the Hydroxy gas.
This in turn is introduced into the engine.

The key part of this is that the gas acts as a catalyzer, making the detonation and burn of the fuel more efficient.
This will work to a minor degree in many engines, but eventually you run up against the excess O2 in the O2 sensor. Then the O2 sensor must be tricked into thinking it is seeing something different.

THIS IS WHY MANY PEOPLE DONT SEE ANY INCREASE IN MILEAGE.

The O2 sensor sees extra O2 coming by it and sends a signal to the CPU in the car to enrich the fuel mixture. This negates the added gain of the Hydroxy gas.

This will happen with nearly any fuel injection car.

There is a gadget on the market for recalibrating the O2 sensor. Do you need a link to it?

But yes, this is one thing I have found in my research, the ECU sees a leaner burning engine and so pumps in more fuel. Depending of course on the vehicle, I think my 86 S10 might just be old enough not to fall into this trap, but a normally aspirated engine might be the best candidate for testing.

One part of my test was going to be installing the O2 gadget and getting a mileage comparison running HHO, and then leaving the O2 gadget in place and switching off the HHO. I think I had a list of about 5 different tests I was going to run on my vehicle, (if you're interested.)

Im going to see if I can boost up a cell that will do the capacity needed for my car. Even if I dont use it for my car, it should do well with a lawn mower...ahem..

Please feel free to experiment. Post results and quantifiable data.

I worked with some Stainless Steel last night and found it "not as bad as I thought." Working on a new cell design right now.

Managed to get a concept together for a very tightly spaced, but easy to reproduce cell last night. Im trying to keep the concept as simple as possible in case anyone wants to duplictae it. I have a noted lack of metal working tools, so it needs to be simple and as well thought out beforehand as I can.

One of the concepts that keeps coming up is the cohesion of hydrogen bubbles to surfaces. Even a good roughing doesnt seem to breal them loose. Im hoping once I get my miCro, I can program the machine to channel cut some more surface area into the plates and introduce a better bubble release surface. Im also planning to use the rising force of the bubbles against each other to create a bit more chaos. I finally gave in and ordered some electrolyte which should be here next week. I made some preliminary forays into various electrolytes and I highly discourage any use of chloride or bicarbonate products. I have verified the byproducts and they are not pretty. Fortunately for me, I was nearly a victim of CO poisoning once and have learned that the "sleepy feeling" is a clear sign of danger. If I get a slight headache and the sleepies, I can always bet there is CO in the air.

Pretty bubbles mean little if you are dead.


Got the go ahead from the wife to get a standard car battery and bench it for the power source as I figured I am losing a lot of potential with long wire runs.
Also rounded up a Ford F150 as a possible guinea pig.

It is a good week for Science!

Okay bought a battery last night so I dont have to worry about skitchy connections and long lines across the floor. Did a few connectors and soldered them all up for good contact. Will start again tonight as I seem to need to change my woodshop over to electricity for a while. I also have to clean.

Now to tackle something nobody else has done. I need to develop a quantifiable way to measure the EFFICIENCY of the gas production. There are quite a few good generators out there but they all use different means of measuring their efficiency. Some of these monsters actually had to put larger alternators on their trucks to handle the loads.

So Im thinking that a standardization needs to be proposed. Im thinking that the electrolyte needs to standardized to 1 level tsp per liter concentration and that it need to be balanced out against the total AVAILABLE surface area of the generator. That way we could come to some definite conclusions about how efficient these things really are. DaveAK has come up with a good basis for testing on the actual effect of the Brown's gas on a car.
Dave, please post if you will.

Im getting impatient for my electrolyte so I may try a Sodium Hydroxide solution tonight.

This is getting to be just like my PJ. But I really dont want to rush in and declare this a truly viable tech. On paper this makes sense, but only if you control the factors that could effect it. This could be a daunting task. Make no mistake about it, the reason that scam artists use this tech is because of the dream and the fact that there is SO MUCH wiggle room that they can always blame failure on "other circumstances".

SJ

I am keenly aware of the variables that go into the construction of these cells. But this is NOT a deep math excercise, it is basic chemistry.

If you read the post then you are aware that there is no standardization for measuring efficiency of HHO generators. I was proposing a start so that we could whittle away until we have all the variables taken care of except for the cell itself. In the end it will most likely be a ratio derived from the chemical density of the electrolyte in solution balanced against the surface area and amps needed to run it.

Basic Research Methodology is your friend..

Forgive me for asking, but wouldn't efficiency be measured simply on energy in vs. product out? I.E. amps drawn vs. litres of gas per minute? The electrolyte used and the cell design will affect these numbers of course, but you can then compare the different variables. Why would you settle on a particular concentration of electrolyte such as 1tsp per litre? For a given concentration you could compare different cell designs, or for a given cell design you could vary the concentration to find the best. Oh, and I mentioned readily available distilled white vinegar as a possible electrolyte, maybe not the most effective, but it's what I was going to try because I can get it from my local grocery store.

I'm definitely going to have to get this up and running so I can compare results with you. I think you are far more thorough in your approach than I would be, and that in itself would be truly educational for me.

Here's my suggestion for vehicle testing, which I think will go some way to test each of the factors in isolation, for a chosen design of HHO generator:

1. Install all equipment, but do not hook it up. Take a baseline gas mileage. (Allows for effect of physical installation of equipment.)

2. Hook up HHO unit and have it producing, but venting to atmosphere. Measure change in mileage. (Measures cost of actually producing the HHO.)

3. Hook HHO into fuel/air system. Take mileage. (Measures benefit of HHO.)

4. Switch on O2 sensor recalibration. Take mileage. (Measures benefit of adjusting for the ECU.)

5. Switch off HHO, but leave O2 sensor recalibrated. Take mileage. (Measures benefit from simply leaning out the fuel supply.)

I have a 20 mile loop that I was going to take 3 times for each test. It begins and ends at a gas station that I would fill the tank up and note the mileage. This way the engine will always be up to temperature and the weight of the vehicle will always be the same throughout the tests. I figured that the above tests should show the effects of each part of the equation. If all goes well then tests 3 or 4 will show the best results, offsetting the cost in test 2, and being better than a leaner burn by test 5 alone.

BOOM!

Thats the sound of Hydrogen baby! A loosely filled sandwhich bag will make a boom loud enough to have the neighbors call to see if we are okay.
Changed over to a Sodium Hydroxide solution. It draws ten amps and produces quite a bit more than the vinegar or citric acid. Better than Acetic, but not quite as good as my secret electrolyte.

Ah...a very good night for Science!

Now to get going on my BETA design for the plate array.
Wont be easy to cut that steel, but I think it will be worth it.

Before...

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With 10 amps at 1 tsp per liter solution...


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Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble....

What production rate are you getting at 10 amps? You mentioned something like 1 litre/min at 2 or 3 amps earlier.

I believe what you should do is make a sealed device rather than open as with the one you are making currently.



Current will not readily flow through the center plates as they can most likely flow around the sides leaving much power wasted (and waste of surface area of plates) and is effectively only a single cell.




This configuration actually makes the cells bipolar, forcing current through each cell. Anyways this is how i made my cell. Its only about 5x5x5 and produces about a liter and a half of gas a min.

I don't really want to be a "Negative Nancy" but .... can you explain to me how you plan on making a vehicle/engine more efficient by burning hydrogen that it produces through electrolysis? Disregarding mechanical losses entirely, you have to consider the efficiency of using electrical energy to separate gasses, and then the efficiency of burning said gases to convert that chemical or heat energy back into mechanical energy AND THEN convert that back into electrical energy to start the process all over again. If anything you will see a loss in total efficiency.

Another question for you, if you produce X amount of hydrogen, how many times X of petrol did it take to produce that hydrogen? (they need to be in the same state, gas or liquid)

If my brain serves me correctly, it should follow the first law of thermodynamics.

I commend you for taking initiative and experimenting. There is always a more efficienct way of doing things. I don't know if my comments are off base with your initial intent (increasing MPG in a vehicle by burning hydrogen it creates), but keep experimenting and keep collecting information.

Think in terms of the HHO gas being a catalyst. The additional efficiency of the burn will offset the additional load on the engine and then some by a small percentage. The mistake that most people make is that they tend to think in absolutes when it comes to these things and often forget about the effect of the catalyst in the system. Properly built, a hydroxy generator should pull no more load from the system than an air conditioner. The key is to use the product to give back to the system. In a pure state the gas is hard to manage, but in a mixed state with petrol, the gas will aid in the combustion of the fuel increasing the efficiency of the burn and making better use of the complex hydrocarbons during the burn.

Another rather special result of this is that the burn is so much better that the exhaust is usually MUCH more clean.

Again, think of it as a catalyst, and next time bring some facts to the table. We are collecting them.

SJ

The cat converter only treats exhaust gas. I don't see how removing it would affect the performance at all. (It requires no energy to catalyse the gasses).

Guys I just saw this thread, I have Already installed a HHO system in my 2000 Chevy truck, V-6 4.3L. I am waiting now for an EFIE to arrive to install to assist in leaning back the Gas some. If you have O2 sensers which most later models do you will need one to send a higher voltage aprox. 0.3v im my case to the ECU (brain of the truck)

I have an increase so far of just over 3mpg. and shooting for at least 6mpg. I can take some pictures if you like, The generator is installed behind the front bumper, the Bubbler is installed up top on left next to A/C dryer, and the hose from there goes to the air intake.

Joe

Hey Joe, that's the same engine in my wife's Blazer. What mpg were you getting before? Did you just get one EFIE, or do you need one for each O2 sensor? If I remember correctly they were about $50 a pop, right?

I will be using a dual EFIE one for each sensor before the cat's. I was getting 17.0mgp prior now 20.1mpg. I will be installing EFIE next week.

Joe

More reasearch tonight as I try to make some plates and discover that my ability to work with harder metals is WOEFULLY lacking. I cant get an even cut out of this thin to save my life, so Im thinking maybe a truly ugly cell will be born today...

I mean REALLY ugleliscious...

Suggestions for obtaining plates would be much appreciated. currently I am looking for SS rulers...

That would make a good long tall cell.