Want to build custom speakers to fit in with the screen etc. the front speakers I want at a 45deg angle to the center of the couch ( ruffly 9' away from the screen ) 3 foot from the ceiling and 3 foot away form the screen ( subject to change when I get to measure the distance that they are not in the light cone ). I want 3 way, each with its own driver(?). I plan to replicate this for the satellite speakers as well.

I have a 6.1 a/v receiver and am using optical in from cd player / hdcable. no blue ray yet.

The sub I'm going to put under the floor from the basement in its own enclosure, and will be reading up on that.

so the question is - anyone have some good links for R&D? Any advice on manufacturer of the speakers? etc etc.
thanks

Zaph Audio was mentioned in another thread.

LL Small Form Speakers thread: http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23667

thanks quasi - any specific search terms you would recommend seeing as your the guru of google?

Can't help you, there. I've no knowledge yet of DIY Audio.
I'll probably be going the Logitech route (mentioned in that LL thread), when I get around to needing 5:1 sound.

ok check out that link, and now I have a headache

What I _ think_ I want, is 6; 3 way speakers for the surround, and for a sub? hell who knows atm. I do know that if a bomb goes off in a movie I want my cheeks to vibrate - with out window damage. I want to hear the sub however I realized that for me it more important to feel the intensity of the blast - to feel the shock wave If its thunder I want it to roll, not just rumble rumble - silence. I hope I'm conveying this correctly.

From my limited knowledge I believe I'm looking for a way to have full range from each unit, with hi/mid/low each on its own driver, with out it being a muddy nightmare. I am thinking though that I want them to compliment the sub. I'm thinking of mounting the sub directly under the couch, which would be under the floor boards in the basement.

In my cluster I have set up now the fronts are over powered and I can barley hear the surrounds unless I lower the fronts. both fronts are matched, the l/r surrounds are matched, and the center/center rear are matched however all 3 sets are completely different builds. There is no sub at this time.

If you aren't happy with the balance of your mains, center, and surrounds, most receivers can independently adjust the levels for each. I have a 4 year old bottom of the line sony 5.1 receiver, and it does it, so I bet your receiver can as well. Keep in mind that the rear surround speakers aren't supposed to be that loud anyway. They are pretty subtle 90% of the time.



If you want to feel the sound, your first order of business should be a good subwoofer, not necessarily all new speakers. Its going to do a LOT more of that work than your mains will. Once you have that, and have adjusted your speaker levels to your liking, then consider if you need a whole new set of speakers or not.

You might also be interested in tactile transducers if you haven't heard of them before. Put your sub somewhere easier, and stick a few of those guys on your couch

Hey,

Building a 6.1 system is always nice. I have a 5.1 home cinema system here, fully DTS and THX !! And it costed me only 300euros.

I bought me the Logitec Z5500 system. Gives very good sounds and is about 500W RMS.

Might be something for you

Mark

Okay, Took me a while to read this...

First off, "3 way" speakers are really just a stereo pair consisting of (typically) a bass driver, a midrange, and a tweeter. There are each driven from a single channel, so a pair of 3 way speakers is really only 2 channel. Adding in a subwoofer makes it 2.1

The speakers are crossed over, so that only the speaker is fed the most appropriate signal for it's abilities. This can be passive (which means that each set only needs one channel of amplification) or active, where the signal is split into the components, and each is separately amplified.

6.1 means that there are 7 distinct signals: Front left, left, rear left, front right, right, rear right, and subwoofer. Any of these signals can be sent to multiple speaker arrays, like 2 or 3 way speaker enclosures.

Generally, theater audio systems are an odd number with a .1 3.1, 5.1 or 7.1, where the odd channel is the center channel This is where most of the dialogue comes from in the movies. The center channel speaker usually does not have much bass reproduction.

If your receiver is 6.1, then that means that it does not have a center channel processor or decoder. The "center" channel gets mixed into front left and right. (Personally, I see nothing wrong with this, but it can alter the way that you hear the movie a bit.)

I'll agree with what was said about the subwoofer. That's what gives you the FEELING of the sound. That's the low-frequency that you feel in the pit of your stomach.

Good to know

The speaker output on my receiver is as follows:
l c r sl sc sr sub

hey hey idea link picked it up here in town though.


THe fronts are floor speakers, center is from a $50 radio we had mounted in the kitchen, the surround l/r are a matched set form an old large screen TV with 5.1 made by RCA. the surround center is form the same elcheapo kitchen stereo.

The av receiver does have adjustments etc for each channel, speaker size ( basde on freq. response) and level, distance from listening position which I have played with and the only time I hear the surround is when its a large explosion or such, but for the subtleties / ambient I have to put my ears on the speakers and then they are still barley audible ( the adjustment are -10 to +10 and they are at +6 atm)

Hey I appreciate all the input

Ah, so that does have center channel output, assuming that the speaker outputs translate to:

Left, Center, Right, Surround Left, Surround Center, Surround Right, Subwoofer.

Though I don't know that I'd use the "surround center" myself, unless you have a lot of dead space behind your couch.

Yeah the couch is 3 feet from the wall, I went through the receiver options again, and used the test tone ( big ol whopping DUH!! DOH!! here) and they where so out of whack - user error on that note. They are much better now heh.

I still would like a matched set of 6 + sub. The ones I have each pair sound ok - per pair, however each pair are now where close to the other pairs.
I need a new set.

You know, in all the years that I've been interested in home theater as a hobby, I think the most subjective thing is always sound. You get people at both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between. One person is using an old pair or Realistic speakers that he got from his dad's old stash. They sound like crap, it's a 2.0 system, and he loves them. Another guy runs his system with an incredible 7.1 system running Krell amplifiers, Sunfire preamps and subs, some exotic $90,000 a pair 6ft tower speakers up front and the works. It sounds amazing, the walls flex with the bass, and he loves it.

Me, I love great sounding speakers, but sometimes my finances can't keep up with my tastes so I make due with what I can get. A few years ago I discovered B&W speakers (from across the pond). They sound fantastic! But Klipsch also has some great speakers. Anyway, back to your posting, there are some who advocate using identical speakers for all the speakers in your system. I am interested in the offerings by Fluance. They have some very affordable speaker systems. Are they junk? Hard to say without some good auditions.

As far as DIY I built a set of bookshelf speakers, the AR.Com's (seen HERE) designed by a guy named Ed Frias a few years ago and I have been in love with them ever since. He is the guy to ask about making speakers. I think his company is called EFE Technology. He has a small time operation as far as I know but from what I've heard he really knows what he's doing. I ordered the kit through Madisound but I don't think they are still available. Partsexpress has a variety of great speaker designs (HERE) that people have submitted as well. For me, even having heard expensive speakers that sounded amazing, there is something awesome about having some speakers that I put together myself on the 'ol workbench.

For the subwoofer, good subs and bass frequencies in general, are pretty omnidirectional. I've had the fortune of testing some of the Sunfire subs and those babies rock! It doesn't really matter where that thing is sitting (there are some circumstances where corner placement can effect sub performance) you are going to feel it.

The difference between 6.1 and 7.1 is one less rear speaker. The extra rear channel on 7.1 is generally just a copy of the other rear channel, in other words the 2 rear channels are just mono.

DJ

Thanks, Dazz. I saw that already. I'd only ever seen one 6.1 setup before, and it was done with analogue inputs, and not done the way that they all are now, it seems. Everything else that I've looked at in the last 6 or 7 years is 2.1, 3.1, 5.1 or 7.1.

I hear you on the finances v. tastes thing. I have picky ears. I also have a picky bank account... Well, actually, I have a picky wife who doesn't have picky ears.

This is a large part of what's fostered the DIY spirit in me for electronics.

What you can do for speakers is largely dependant on your budget, however, the difference between a decent speaker and an excellent one is, more often than not, the cabinet that it's built in. Example, I bought a pair of Best Buy speakers. Infinity brand name. Not great, but they sounded good at low to moderate levels. Crank it up, though and the bass starts distorting, and there's a nasty resonance in the high end. I cracked them open, pulled out the drivers, and applied some fibreglass resin to the particle board, with fibreglass cloth to the side and rear panels. When I put the speakers back in, I sealed the back panel onto the cabinet. Try again, and they'll play loud and clear. Most of the problems at high volumes were the cabinets resonating and flexing.

Are they as good as the speaker set that you'd pay $800 for? Probably not, but considering that I got them for $100, and put another $10-$15 wirth of fibreglass, resin and epoxy into, I was very happy with them. Their current owners are happy with them, too.

I hear you Supra. That's one thing I noticed about those speakers that I built; the enclosures were built like a bank vault, very solid & well made.

That is awesome about your Infinity speaker mod. Way to go. I love the "can-do" attitude that permiates the DIY community!

So I am a bit confused on exactly what you are looking to do, speaker wise. Do you want to buy speakers already built or do you want to start from square one with a few drivers, some wire, and a pile of wood?

If you are going for option #2, might I suggest getting this program, WinISD. This will help with your design for your box for whichever woofers you choose.

I have a ton of links for speaker design and building, so if you are going that route let me know and I would be more than happy to share the information I have collected.

I would like to build them, initially for the spirit of the who le thing ( diy ya know) and secondly and most importantly the " damn they rock and I built them" feeling

looking at the links now

ps...

From the satellite speakers I'm want them to have the sound of a nice full mid range, which is why I was thinking tweet, mid, base

Surround processing puts hardly ANY bass in the surround channels, in fact it's deliberately blocked at the mastering level, so putting woofers in for your surround channels is kind of a waste. Decent mids, sure, but no point in the woofers.

bass* - I nash my teeth spelling that - all I cab think of is a fish.Click to view attachment
The english language is a bitch

Click to view attachment

That said, any frequency the woofers would carry isnt in the signal?

I second this motion! It would be a big waste to build a three way speaker for the surrounds. I don't know what frequency they cutoff at, but it is pretty high, a guess would be 200Hz or so. Any smallish woofer/mid (3" or 4") can easily go that low. No need to go big for the surrounds. Spend your money/attention on the center, right and left mains, and a decent sub.

And Insertname, don't forget (as I have discovered just recently), building crossovers isn't too cheap either. If you have a three way speaker, I would recommend a 2nd order crossover, which will require 4 capacitors and 4 inductors per built speaker! That will translate to a minimum of $30/speaker for the crossovers, and can easily exceed $60/speaker for decent components. I just spent $60 for the components to build three, 2nd order, 2-way crossovers. I forgot how expensive it can get building nice speakers!

So what do you think about when we say "three way"?

3 way

Click to view attachment


So I took a look at those links, problem is I'm not sure what I'm looking at when it comes to that program. Whats the word on these? ( 5" )

I have wanted to make a new set of speakers using those HiVi copper colored drivers for some time now. I love the way they look, and they would look super sexy in a gloss black epoxy coated enclosure... *drool*

Mainly, WinISD is a program for designing an enclosure to meet your bass needs. So for example, if you wanted to model what one of these (M5N) drivers would sound like in different enclosures it would look like this...

The yellow line is the sealed enclosure. The green line is a bandpass (or ported) enclosure based on HiVi's recommendations. And that purple line represents your -3dB cutoff.

You are probably thinking that the ported enclosure looks great, it extends very low and is relatively flat. But you also have to look at whats called the "group delay". This is what separates the men from the boys (so to speak, more like the crappy sounding subs from the good ones). 90% of the mass market subs will have horrendous group delay (large values, measured in milliseconds). The kids with the thumper cars more often than not have incredibly high group delays. This creates a subwoofer that produces bass where there isn't bass, it is sloppy, or commonly called "muddy". That poor subwoofer is flapping in the breeze because the enclosure it is mated with isn't properly tuned to keep the cone under control based on the specifications of the driver.

It is hard to find finite information regarding group delay, but through my searching it seems that a good rule of thumb would be to keep group delay below one cycle length (period) of the frequency in question for it to be inaudible. So from the above enclosure designs we can view the group delays of each design...

The yellow line being the group delay of the sealed enclosure (best group delay, or lowest value), and the green line being the ported (second best group delay). So we see it has a spike around 50 Hz, and that translates to a period of 20ms (1/freq to get period). But the calculated group delay value at that frequency for that enclosure is only 13ms, which is well below the 20ms threshold. So this ported enclosure has the potential to reproduce bass frequencies fairly accurately.

This is more or less what I found when working with enclosure specifications. I didn't like the Q of enclosures that gave me signifigantly more bass response. As a rest, I went with sealed.

So what is the status of this project so far? Have you decided on drivers yet or are you still researching?

still mulling it over. I'm going to do it - just other stuff got in the way.

as far as building the cross overs I'm clueless - I don't know what any of the lingo means. I know only that they cut filter out various frequencies based on their specs - or variable if switchable.

so basically I'm gearing up with the research - what I'm needing to know

surround speakers - what the frequency range is so I can pick my drivers, I'm very interested where the bass gets cut off at.
sub - what the cut off needs to be for the "seat of your pants" feel with out any mudd.
I am aiming for the higher end of the base - that transition range between the mids and bass to be fluid - just flowing from the speakers to the sub etc.

My goal is also to have a relatively seamless transition between each speaker. Last night I was watching monsters INC and it sounded HORRID. imo. when the surrounds kicked in the tone was just awful compared to the front - no synergy at all.

The best example of this is when waternuse is being arrested, the right surround channel picks up the dialog and it bounces between the right surround and the front / center. It was just painful how bad the right surround sounded. Also Balance between the sets is just horrid. all 3 sets are different in tonality. Its a real cluster.

I'm going to build out of hard wood. why? well anyone who plays acoustic guitar knows why. The tonality of the hard top, verses the multi layer tops is just that much better. Also the older the guitar gets the better it sounds do to what the sound vibrations do to the wood - the way they resonate changes. Makes sense to believe that the same hold true for speakers.

then again I could be way off base, been known to happen from time to time