Hi Everyone, I appreciate the questions! I have to go build micRo parts now, and put out some shipments. I'll answer all questions in detail tonight.

I don't know how I would do it, but some day your dedication, support and hard work will return in other forms, maybe beer, chocolate , or the next year you have home at Spain . (Now there is only a big hole rrrrrrrrrrrrr).

Good night.

Hi,

First off I have to say this is an awesome project, good job on it so far.

I have a question regarding the kits and pricing: If both currently available kits are purchased, is the rest of the machine provided free (Or at the cost of shipping.) when it's available ?

Secondly, what is the cost of shipping to the UK ?

Keep up the good work.
-Andrew.

Ok first a quick update, then I'll try to address all of the questions. Today's objective was to put out the orders, then finish the Z back plate for the micRo. The Z piece is the final iteration made from 1" x 2" x 6" Delrin. We machine the piece to hold the Z way-clamps (1" x 1" x 2" Delrin), and to be the Y bearings and the Y nut....it's a good time to be a robot builder, as advances in material engineering make this job a lot easier! A vid of the smooth turning action:



Oh, and a big bunch of DB25 breakouts came, thanks to Brent Hubbard from HubbardCNC, who made these pieces by hand in excellent time!

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Thanks! CNC is like DOS or something..it's all about the wares that make the bot go. Joe has been "infected" for awhile...his creations are genius without doubt!

The best rotary tool is a tool that has the most power, the smallest space, the highest duty cycle and the greatest resolution.


Hi mashupishu I definitely wouldn't mind a house in the beautiful Spanish countryside...let me know! The Kress is well regarded, yet is larger than the size I have envisaged for micRo. There are so many excellent choices for a spindle that the "public" wouldn't consider, as these motors are used elsewhere. That said; you can put anything you can fit on the micRo Z-mount..I fully encourage this behavior!

Hi Tim, We have only one customer service rep, who is also my oldest friend, Bennie. When he gets psychotic, we take off the contact info to let his work-day = < 10hours. Why not hire more people? No money! If you are headed this way, just PM me...I'd be glad to see you.


For sure. That is a huge router for micRo, and is best suited for RoGR. The micRo spindle will be <2" D.


Thanks mashu, I'd love a vacation. My family would too..


Hi Andrew, Thanks for getting involved. Buying both kits insures you have it all. The status changes quickly, because the product is new...but micRo is reaching stabilization now, while demand seems to soar like inflation. This means to me (duh) that micRo is a new DIY standard not unlike the DIY projector; a paradigm. I know that micRo can be lots more than an XYZ Roomba, and micRo is the best choice for the curious, capable and intrepid minds that will use the little beast to create and err....oh yea, shipping to UK.. My best guess is about $25 greenbacks...

Hey Everyone! Well I did a lot of work at the shop tonight on micRo, mainly trying to finish the Z. I had re-engineered the Z-way support bloks to use a clamping force instead of a set screw, but we found that the deflection of the clamp caused the ways to change the width-spacing just slightly, which would cause uneven wear from the Z bearings, so the bloks had to go! Nothing like 5 hours of machining expensive plastic to throw on the scrap heap. Hey, it's not a loss though; we learn by doing, and that's why it's BETA.

That said, we did get the production ready gantry bloks finished and they ARE out of BETA (phew, there's a graveyard of those things at the shop!). That means there are only 5 total pieces still in BETA, and three of those are identical. So just 3 pieces left to complete the engineering for. So close! A quick look over the design successes and failures gives me a good idea of what to change, so I feel fairly confident I can bring the machine out of BETA now, especially since I can use the prototype Z design if I must, as it worked fine. I'd rather take the time to finish these pieces based on the "new way" of engineering that produced the super-awesome gantry-bloks, so I'll finish those designs over the weekend and cut it on Monday.

I'll try to have a spindle nailed down one way or another by Tues, since my first job for micro will be a demo cutting of 1" thick steel of the yet to be seen micRo logo. Here are the production ready gantry bloks that elegantly serve many functions with high precision. Note all of these pieces plus 5 more bloks and a few couplings are included in the BK, and as of Monday or so, there will be no more "BK" but rather the whole kit, and the individual pieces. If you bought the BK and MK, you are covered for the whole shebang.

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The numerous machining operations, every hole, pocket etc was carefully considered. Notice the "steps" in the way supports; they are engineered to have the exact amount of oversized "crush" needed to allow very tight fitment against the ways when assembled and tightened down. No screws are needed to mount the motor, it is clamped tightly between the blocks, and indexing notches prevent it from possibly backing out under hard driving.

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do those bolts have torque specs? Are they able to strip out? (Just be carefull! my inner voice says) Are there nuts that I can't see or are they threaded ito the plastic? They look beautiful. I can hardly wait to touch them.

I've been trying to keep up, honestly! But summer commitments have been making it difficult. On the plus side one of those commitments is a new workshop, which of course is just crying out for a micRo! I should be ready to order in a few weeks, and I've think I've caught up with this thread enough to see that ~$500 will get us everything we need with the exception of base, spindle/tool/sharpie and computer/software. But I also see you talking about a spindle offering. This would be of great interest to me, any chance you can expand on what it is you have in the works?

The biggest problem I see in self-sourcing a spindle is the sourcing/making of the spindle holder/clamp/whatever you want to call it.

Also I note that your guesstimate for shipping to the UK was $25. Really? You think you can do it for that? 'Cause I live in Alaska and shipping is always the biggest problem. When I'm ready I would order a complete kit, (and spindle if you have an offering), so that it could all ship at once.

It's all looking good! Keep up the good work!

Those are M5 alan cap screws that are just there for demo purposes. They aren't even long enough to go through the block, but I wanted you to see the size of the screws. The permanent hardware will be ordered over the weekend, now that the spec is out of BETA. Numerous hardwares were tried and tested. You can tap Delrin easily and it's very strong, but it costs me 32 (!) extra operations over just through-bolting and using a lock-nut, and guess what? Through bolting is the strongest of all the methods. It is hard for me to give up these notions of putting aesthetic beauty high...but keeping costs down wins, and if another method only adds looks and not performance, then it must go!


Sweet on the new shop! How much room ya have?

For the spindle, this thread began with a BLDC syncro motor, which is a little hottie. Permanently sealed, 100% duty cycle, sealed ball bearings on both ends, capable of >35,000RPM, no brushes to die, torque stays constant due to PWM/back-wave control, and certainly very powerful for its size. These are made for high-end R/C vehicles, which demand a lot of performance/weight from the motor, as well as durability. I'm going to try to have it running on micRo next week, but I gotta say I already feel very confident on this one.

For the shipping: if it goes USPS airmail to Europe, I think it'd be around $25 if I don't have to send the base. I would need to confirm this though. Now keep in mind that glaciers routinely beat airmail around the world (2-6weeks)!

For your purchases: The leadtime for the bearing kits is large. It is mostly China who takes so long, and in the future kits have to come via slow-boat. This puts leadtimes out past 2 months if the kits aren't in stock. I've eliminated most of the Chinese stuff but we need those ways. The first order of micRo parts from China is in the states now and I expect delivery next week. This means that whoever bought those kits are the first to receive the complete micRo off of LL's CNC machines. I don't expect that to go fast either! There's always problems...

That means that when I put the micRo kits up for sale, you'll see a 6-8 week delivery time, but kits start getting cut next week: first come first served. It also means that those who bought in the first wave are just a couple weeks off! When you make a purchase a lot of things happen...Basically you are contracting me to use your money to buy the parts you need or manufacture what is not available. To do so I use your funds to purchase goods and materials, then to machine the materials. When a lot of people buy-in I have enough resources to get better prices on the goods, which I always return via better product, freebies for upgrades etc. Typically, the early adopters are the big winners as they get lots of free-upgrades as I come to my senses through the process. Over time, I can eventually keep a somewhat steady supply, that is, if the public accepts my invention as a good one and rewards me with lots of sales.

I just want to be totally forthcoming, if you buy the micRo, I will spend your money on the goods. Lumenlab is a tiny company with more blood, sweat and tariffs than capital (but going on 6 years old wooo!!!). We are just 4 people who often don't get paid to keep the company running... but you get us, not BestBuy...we actually care!

BestBuy = boring mindrot

micRo = super kick ass

That settles it.

Hi brain & lumenlab crew.

I had just received the invoice of the order I made a few days ago, and I wish if is possible to retain it until you decide the spindle stuff, as for me will be more interesting in getting it from you.

That's all, eating my nails, counting down, drinking cold beer (there is some on the fridge for you&Robin&TheOthers;)) have a nice weekend.

Hi mashu, thanks for your order. Sure we can hold your order, but please write to Bennie in customer service to tell him!

Now for eating your nails, it is bad for them and they don't make a good meal. I suggest instead a pizza to go with the beer. What kind of beer do Spaniards drink?

I just ordered the kits! I am so excited I could pee!

Bathroom quick!

hey play nice some of us have to work there to send you our paychecks

Hey I got absolutely nothing against anyone working at Bestbuy! I respect anyone who works.

I'd just rather have a micRo than an Xbox!

Phew, babies asleep! Spent the last few hours building a computer to run Ubuntu/EMC2 at home, and diagnosing a failure of another computer with a P5E3 mobo running 8gb DDR3 and a Q6850 extreme quad (4 x 3ghz procs), which is a $1200 chip! I threw the Qx chip into my Gigabyte GA-73UM mobo and it works..phew! The mandatory cooling of this 130w chip is loud...I FEEL LIKE I SHOULD BE TYPING IN CAPS.

Anyway, I got the old-ass e-machines (with the parallel port) running, and now I'm ready to try to invoke EMC2's PWMGEN to run the syncro-motor spindle! Back soon maybe.

If Vista has ever been on a disk, expect nightmares....it really seems like sabotage!

ah vista i recommend no one buy a computer with vista (keep in mind where i work sometimes)

i went back to xp when it said the administrator didn't have administrative rights to administer the registry
causing an inability to install MICROSOFT MONEY there product

you can always low level format it from a linux live cd before running install and get rid of all those hidden root files vista installs

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/[hda|hdb|sda|etc.] ?

I imagine that would take can of any Vista after effects. I've been going through my old computers to figure out which one would be most promising for my EMC2 box. Unfortunately, my main box is starting to flake out and is about as reliable as a well...I don't know...It's bad though. Thinking I'll have to pick up a cheapy bare bones from NewEgg/TigerDirect for the controller. I'd hate to use my main box for it and have it lock up mid job.

I was thinking about putting together a DSL w/ EMC2 combo to try out on a Celeron 700 computer I have laying around, but we'll see how much time I want to put into that.

Phooowee what a long.hard.hot. day at the shop. We got a lot done though! Remember those last 5 pieces I mentioned?

Here is the motor mount in the Z top blok. The motor is recessed into the blok to only require a set screw to hold it in.

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Here it's all coming together. These pieces are about 75% finished.

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The Z parts loosely sitting together to show the placement. The tool holder is actually two pieces that can be spread farther or closer apart, or the top piece removed if not needed, for jobs like pen-plotting, pick n' place, wax carving etc. This increases the Z to 3.5" for those types of tools, yay!

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Everything works excellent, is as simple as it should be, and shows high precision. I'm feeling pretty good about starting production!

Brain,

What are the dimensions of the surface of the tool holder pieces which face the tool? And do you think it would be a good mounting plan to secure a clamp with through bolts between the ways and the screw? How much clearence is there? I am thinking of mounting a dremel until your spindle is ready.

By the way, I really like the motor mounting in the Z top blok. How did you decide the depth to recess the motor?

Hi Dave,

The tool holder bloks shown are 1" x 1" x 2.5" each, The face of them together at the most compressed setting is 2" tall x 2.5" wide. If you can get by with less Z, the bloks can be spread apart before your tool mount is fastened to them, allowing for greater rigidity in the tool. If the tool is simple like a pen or knife, the top blok can be eliminated for a face of 1" tall x 2.5" wide.

Thanks. It is 3x the diameter of the set-screw, which provides for an adequate surrounding margin for the set-screw when seated (assures set screw won't "pop-under" the motor from inadequate margin).

Try the thrift store, really. Lots of DB25 outputs and 700mhz procs....If you are building a dedicated machine controller, it's all you need...the real bottleneck is in the parport itself, and has been since procs hit 400mhz.

I've been checking out the latest compiled EMC2 with "haughty heron" Ubuntu. Nice so far...

Hi Mom!

Update: The manufacturer finally shipped micRo's motors for delivery this Monday. This means the Motor Kits begin shipping Tuesday. Lots of you want your MK shipments held until the masterkit is ready, so please PM me with your order # if you have any requests.

Is the only advantage of waiting saving on shipping charges?

Hi brain, sorry for the delay of the answer, I had a few complicated days

First of all, happy birdthday, (with a bit of delay too), nice presents?, I think that you machined a cake with the micRo or a XXL cake with the RoBLOCK .

Spanish beer?, ummmmmm, uuummmm, very very cold , and similiar as budweiser, I really don't know the english/american adjetive for beer, here is said "blond" beer, we usually drinks country wide ones, and for me the best imported one is budweiser/USA and Warsteiner/Germany, but I think that we can talk long about beer and finally forced to change the topic of the thread to micRoBeer ....

Also I decided stopping eating my nails and thinking in machining them with the micRo .

Ciaoooo.

Yes, the second video ends with me "blowing out the fire" from the toasted ESC after about 100 runs (late late late). It's rated at ~30v-30a, but at 100krpm, the reluctance/v reaches the dielectric breakdown voltage and the party finally gets started.

I actually gasped when I saw you hitting 125krpm with that little bastard..

Edit: What would those kinds of speeds be good for?

awesome... but please try to be a bit more careful.

I use those motors on my model airplanes. They're superbly built and rugged as hell. I'd love to see you incorporate them into the micRo. Neat, neat, neat!

Yeah you are using a Brushless Outrunner. Sweet motors and if that isn't what you like then there are a million others like it. They provide tons of torque and lower RPM's than the inrunners(not that 125k isn't enough) If you would like to fiddle with windings, tons of us RC guys actually wind our own (including me) and would love to help. However, what I do know is that Outrunners need lots of cooling, lots of wind. It's fine I am sure with no load but you smack a prop on there (or go through some steel) then it would seem that you would need a heat sink and some fans or something. Very excited. Now, if I just get my order to go through correctly

Hmm. I see Brainchild that in another post on spindles you mentioned that this isn't an outrunner that you are testing because outrunners are open to contaminate. I would be interested to know what you have then. Especially since an outrunner is just a motor where the magnets are the rotating and the coils are standing still and it certainly seems like that in the video. Also, as you noticed. Lower speeds kind of suck for Outrunners. Way too much cogging and just bad control. But it hits that smooth groove pretty quickly. What kind of speed control were you using?

Salter

Yep, well, and that if I improve the design you'll get the newer stuff.


Hi mashu, nothing too bad I hope?


Everything! But we only need 1/2 that rpm...I was just having fun! I do R&D because I like to blow stuff up.


pfft


It's happening.


Hi Tim, I tested two motors last night. The first was a large inrunner. I bought the outrunner last year at the same time, but didn't think it'd perform as well as the larger sealed motor. I was wrong, that's what the first video is about.

A couple questions about that.

1) Contaminates - what are you thinking about for preventing the shavings from getting in there?
2) Heat - Salter's post just prior mentions the outboards tend to run significantly hotter and require cooling. Which would seem reasonable with it designed to be run in the path of a lot of air.

An aluminum/copper heatsinked spindle mount seems like it may be fitting, though a bit expensive to mass produce.

Oh, and tooling. What is the shaft diameter and are there many options as far as -- I've got a brain fart -- let's call them tool holders? Seems like it'd be about on par with a dremel - for the tooling size.

To be clear. I don't think that they necessarily run hotter than others. The heat has a lot more to do with the windings and how much load you are putting on it and what speed. I have burned out inrunners and outrunners alike. I would need to know a lot more about this specific motor. I usually use Motocalc to get a specific performance for a specific plane. Here we are looking for one spindle to cut plastic, alluminum, wood, steel (really slow.) So for me this is new ground.

Salter

Brain, I got a notice my order shipped like a month ago but I still haven't gotten it. I figured it was because it was coming from China. Could I email Bennie and upgrade to the full kit order? If so, what's his address

TXMicro has some decent computers for sale
http://www.txmicro.com/IBM-Netvista-P4-2.4...REE-p-3925.html
$149 2.4GHZ P4 with free shipping
I'm pretty sure it'd have a parallel port since my newer P4 3.2GHz board does.

Judging from the rear picture of it, it has a parallel port.

USB-to-parallel adapters are easy to find, though I don't know about linux compatibility.

Here are some, for example

you can not use adapter like that you will not get the pulses needed to run a cnc controllor board.

joe

A USB adaptor won't work for cnc applications using mach or emc. For this you need the pc bus' parallel port clocking. Or you can spend $150 US or so for a Smoothstepper USB interface

Yes, stay away from USB for precision robotics. For roverbots and the like, it's ok. It isn't just a matter of bus-width, but rather the priority to real-time that the bus architecture supports.

Probably because I printed your postage on accident....some of them slipped through in the regular orders and got stuck on the 'waiting' board. Just PM me, I'll take care of it.

That sure looks like a sweet, (and micro), motor! But a question about it's low end speed. It's been stated that it doesn't run well at low speed, but what kind of speed would we be running at to say machine steel? Would it still be a suitable motor for the tougher jobs that might require a lower speed? I'm sure it all depends on choice of tool as well. Just trying to put the pieces together.

Well, not good, but nothing like a motor on fire to make me smile . Keep going on and take the firefighters number near

Byyeeee.

Hi Dave, There's a lot of relativity here...for instance, what is a slow speed? The motor performs excellent at slow speed if you start counting at 500 RPM. If an encoder were used rather than reluctance feedback, the motor could go down to just a few RPM. Still, we don't care as most anything we do will be done with high-speed tools at ≥10,000 RPM.

This was exactly what I was driving at, the likely operational speed of the spindle. At 10K clearly there wil be no problem.

Another set of questions, as I know how much you like them! What are the shaft sizes on those two motors? Will the shaft size limit the available tool selection? They look to be 1/4" and 1/8" at a guess. If you're holding the tool with collets, how do you connect to the shaft? Would the collet system clamp both tool and shaft? What about holding a 1/4" tool on the smaller motor, assuming it has an 1/8" shaft?

And as for the tools themselves I know you've mentioned carbide tools before. Is there one tool material that would work well for machining a range of work material, (plastics, aluminium, steel, MDF, cheese, etc.), so that we can minimize our tooling costs?