NOTE: This investigation got off to a poor start due to some technical issues. These issues have been addressed and instead of starting a new thread the thread restarts at this post (click here).




A Comprehensive Exploration Of Black Widow (AAA)

The purpose of this thread is to compare no less than six variations of the Black Widow (AAA) screen paint mix. If need be it will include a seventh later in the spring when I can get to a Lowes in Toronto and get the exact base paint that is recommended by the developers of the Black Widow mixes. These will be compared to each other as well as some similar shades of tinted gray paint. One of which will be easily duplicated anywhere in North America for those wishing to dispute my findings.

Click here to see a preview of the photographic comparisons that will be presented.


Preview:

There will be two indisputable white reference sample panels. Kilz2 and Behr ULTRA 4850.

There will be one gray sample panel established as the gray reference.

Behr Ext. ULTRA UPW 4850
Quart Tint
0 12 0 Lamp Black
0 02 1 Brown Oxide
0 01 0 Medium Yellow.

NOTE: This gray tint is a derivative of the
N7 tint provided to wbassett from Xrite.
Behr Exterior ULTRA UPW #4850 is
available throughout North America.

Black Widow (AAA) Variations:

All Bases were computer tinted PPG "Bermuda Beige" (427-2)

Behr UPW #1050
Behr ULTRA 4850
CIL Wash & Wear Ultra Matte
SICO Flat
Benjamin Moore Ulti-Matte
Pittsburgh Paints Flat

All sample panels including the ones already made up, will get two coats of Kilz2 and at least 2 coats of the Black Widow (AAA).
In the case of the previously made up BW-AAA mixes they will get 3 coats due to the fact that water may have been added to thin those first mixes.


Ambient light will be tightly controlled. A single 15w bulb will be suspended 1.5 ft bellow the projector.

All panels will have companion sample cards prepared and these will be cut into separate pieces no smaller than 3" x 7". Samples will be sent to several unbiased individuals that have the ability to measure the color, produce spectral reflectance curves, and in some cases produce gain curves.

In the even that anyone questions the authenticity of the sample cards, then I will section & mark the sample panels. I will post a photograph of the marked panels and ask someone to make a copy so that I have no way to change or edit it. The panels will then be cut up into pieces that are reasonable to send through the mail and sent to the individuals that did the card testing.

If anyone has any further suggestions as to how I might make this a demonstration that is above reproach please send me a PM.

If anyone here is also a member of the AVS DIY Screen forum, and is so inclined, please post to the "Shootout At The "HD" Corral" thread and indicate that the work continues here at LumenLab (don't post a link, just tell them you saw it here first).

The truth, Yay-Or-Nay, will NOT be stopped!

Just in case it is not immediately apparent, this is not going to all appear today.

Given six BW-AAA panels and at least 2 or more reference panels to prime, paint, and allow to cure, this will take several days.

While we are waiting for paint to dry, I will explain the test images that will be used and what all the funny boxes and things are that you see in the comparison photos.

So be patient this is going to unfold over a period of a week or so.

The Combatants have been rounded up!


"Proof Of Life" & Identification:


Click image to enlarge.


The Details

(1) Black Widow (AAA) CIL-Matte

C-I-L Smart3 Wash & Wear
100% Acrylic Interior Paint
Ultra Matte - #88100 - Brilliant White
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"
Some water was added, no more than 4oz/quart.

(2) Black Widow (AAA) Behr 4850

Behr Premium Plus ULTRA
Exterior Flat - Ultra Pure White - #4850
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"
Some water was added, no more than 4oz/quart.

(3) Behr UPW Flat Base #1050

Behr Premium Plus
Interior Flat - Ultra Pure White - #1050
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
To Be Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"

(4) SICO Flat Acrylic Base

SICO Flat Acrylic Latex
Interior - Natural White - #171-14
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
To Be Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"

(5) Benjamin Moore Ulti-Matte

Benjamin Moore Collection
Interior 100% Acrylic Enamel
Pastel Base #F602 1B
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
To Be Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"

(6) The Real Pittsburgh Paints

Pittsburgh Paints Pure Performance Flat
Interior Latex - Pastel Base - #9-110
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
To Be Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"

(7) Valspar Flat Enamel

If Push Comes To Shove
Valspar Flat Enamel from Lowes in Toronto
Tinted: PPG Bermuda beige (427-2)
To Be Mixed (4:1) with Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine"

(8) Kilz2 Primer

Primer & White Reference
All sample panels will be primed with 2 coats.
Two panels will receive an addition 2 coats
and be used as white reference panels.

(9) Behr 4850 ~N7.5

Baseline Reference Gray
Near neutral gray tint similar in shade to the BW-AAA paint.
Behr Premium Plus ULTRA Exterior Flat - Ultra Pure White - #1050

~N7.5 Quart Tint
0 12 0 Lamp Black
0 02 1 Brown Oxide
0 01 0 Medium yellow

Tint derived from the N7 Tint provided to wbassett by Xrite.

Roller Sleeves

White Synthetic Lint Free 6mm Pile.

This is awesome tiddler!

Are you taking donations?

All donations will be gratefully accepted at your local animal shelter.

Approximate cost of paint and rollers $150.

Price to restore one's credibility and reputation, Priceless!

Ambient Light Generator

This is not exactly Hi-Tech but it is something quite repeatable.


Click image to enlarge.

The light is a Philips 15 watt incandescent bulb. On the package it states that it is 115 Lumens.
The projector and the bulb are 14' 3" from the the screen surface.

This photo is just to give an idea of how much light it casts on the screen.


Click image to enlarge.

So that is the plan for ambient light. It is a bit brighter than I had expected but these Black Widow screens are supposed to be the superior choice for ambient light conditions.

I will also be doing some white screen comparisons to for the "Bright White Behr ULTRA 4850" thread. White screens are not supposed to be expected to perform well with ambient light so for those comparisons I will turn all the light off except for some very low back lighting of the screen.

Update:

I tidied up a bit this morning and sample panel priming production is now underway.

I have never seen Kilz2 before let alone used it. Holy Maxx Mudd Batman! That stuff is thicker than Behr UPW.

It rolls out well though. I am curious to see how well it levels out.

I was looking at the two Black Widow (AAA) panels I have already prepared and thinking that if I use them as is there will be criticism because I did not prepare them exactly as the next 4 BW-AAA panels. It also occurred to me that if I do apply two coats of Kilz2 and then 2 or three coats of the CIL & Behr 4850 versions of BW, then I will be criticized for not subjecting the original sample panels to the new more rigorous testing methods. Damned if I do and damned if I don't. So I think I will repeat some of the original comparisons that caused so much uproar elsewhere and then later I will repaint these two sample panels if there is a call for it. This will be sort of like a dry run to try out some enhancements to the procedures and the test images.

If you are sensing that there is more to this than just some curiosity based trials, you are right. I started to do a Home Depot paint shootout on another forum. The parts of that thread that were related to white screens I posted here in the Bright White Behr ULTRA #4850 thread. There were several gray samples that were compared to each other and given the introduction of the Black Widow mix I extended my trials to include two versions of Black Widow (AAA) mixed up using CIL Wash & Wear Ultra Matte and Behr Ultra UPW 4850. I fully expected to be impressed and when the results were surprisingly lack luster, I concluded that the previously presented comparisons where inherently flawed. By that I mean that all I could recall seeing were comparisons of this metallic mix to flat neutral gray interior paints. I had long ago done some sheen investigations and discovered that exterior paints and some interior flat enamels and washable matte paints were much better than typical flat paints. So I had been comparing these Black Widow samples to Behr Exterior Ultra 4850 and then to CIL-Dulux Exterior, Masonry, Stuco & Sidding, Flat paint. It was easiest to get the CIL-DULUX paint tinted Veil to match the shade of the BW-AAA samples. The Black Widow was only showing marginal improvement over the exterior paint. Here are some sample images with RGB sampling using ColorPic:


Click images to enlarge.

These RGB values are only for comparison purposes and do not represent the RGB color data for anything in these images. The use of a tool like ColorPic is only to help confirm if one area of the image is different from the mirrored area across the vertical dotted line.

Needless to say there was a hue-and-cry and a lot of unkind accusations were posted in my direction. Anything from suggesting I was incapable of mixing paint properly to insinuations that I had faked the results. At some point it got to be too much and I started to respond to the flames and when the dust settled I was suspended. So yes there is some history behind all this but in the end I am only interested in getting to the bottom of this technically.

You may now have concluded that I would not be posting this work here if I had not been suspended over there. You would be partially correct. I would not have posted regarding the dark grays because it is really not a good way to go if you have a lower lumen projector. I also had vowed not to post anything here at LumenLab that could be seen as provocative to the developers of the Black Widow mix. It was my hope that if I remained silent here they would share their work with you. They have not done so.

For me this investigation had to be done just to figure out why my results were so drastically different from the BW Team and to some extent to redeem my credibility and reputation as someone who has done this sort of investigation in the past and was highly respected for bringing a very fair and even handed objective mind to the work. That has never changed despite a miss guided, relentless, and ultimately successful campaign to convince people to the contrary. Nuff said about all that.

We will start by revisiting some of the more controversial comparisons:

1. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ BW-AAA-Behr-4850
2. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ CIL-Matte-Veil
3. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ CIL-DULUX-Veil
4. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ CIL-DULUX-Veil + Liquitex Iridescent Medium

By the time I make the enhancements to the comparison images, provide some explanation of the proceedings, and then do the above comparisons, I will have some very well cured Kilz2 panels to compare to the other white samples for the "Bright White Behr ULTRA 4850" thread.


P.S This investigation and this thread to present it started here at LumenLab and while I will probably repost some of this work elsewhere, this is the main thread and all postings will take place here first.

I don't like asking for something like this but since "donations" were brought up . . .

There are a few Lowes in Canada but the closest one to me is 6 hours away in Toronto. The Black Widow (AAA) mix was tested using Vlaspar Flat and Flat Enamel from Lowes. It was color matched by computer database and tinted Pittsburgh Paint & Glass "Bermuda Beige" (427-2). This is a peach colored tint that when mixed 4:1 with the Auro-Air Aluminum Base "Fine" it results in a neutral gray.

If there is anyone who has access to Lowes, is anxious to see the exact Black Widow Team version of Black Widow (AAA) prepared and the tested against these other versions, and you don't want to wait for a couple of months, you could get a quart and send it to me. I'm not really asking , but it is an option if someone is truly anxious to see the real thing in these comparisons sooner rather than later.

i'm watching this with interest...

can you do me a favor and leave out the dotted line on your comparison shots... as it's really distracting me from
getting a really good comparison at the point where the two samples meet. for me thats the most relevant point of comparison and
the dotted line keeps me from the intricate visual comparisons i'm accustomed to making.

OK, I will replace it with a short line at the top and one at the bottom for alignment purposes but keep the center part of the image clear.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Test Image Examples & Explaintions

The following photographs are examples of the test images that I created for the purpose of comparing two 2' x 4' sample panels. These comparison photographs are only valid within themselves. In other words do not compare one photograph to another. It is only valid to compare one sample panel to the other within the same photograph. Given that concept I created test images that are mirror images across the center line.

<<< Click images to see full size.

The mirror images ensure that each panel is exposed to exactly the same projected light. At equal distances from the center line and at equal heights the projected light is exactly the same (within the tolerances of the projector).


Except for the calibration images and some of the all white images, windows with black borders are setup to project white or neutral light onto some photographic reference cards. At the top center is the WhiBal White Balance Reference Card. On the left and right are the Perfect-Pixs Color and White Reference Cards. Above the white reference card on the right is a number indicating that the reference boxes have light with RGB 255 255 255 projected in them. For some darker images I found it necessary to reduce this value in order to avoid over exposure of the reference cards. These cards are there to provide some indication as to how well the image is white balanced.




The next two images show the two sample panels with all white light projected on them. The first "On-Axis" image provides an indication of the relative brightness of whites. This is a very crude visual representation of the relative gain of the two panels. If the two panels are not very close in shade of gray then this must be taken into account when viewing this white light comparison. The projected white light may also provide an indication if hot spotting is likely. You really need a full screen to asses the screen solution for hot spotting but it is often indicated by noticeable variations in the brightness across or down the smaller sample panels.



I usually try to locate the angle at which the two panels appear to be very close in brightness. This is a crude representation of the relative viewing cones. If one of the panels is brighter on axis it is likely at the expense of off axis brightness. This off axis crossover angle indicates at what angle the brightness advantage is no longer visible.




The horizontal black and white bars simulate a mixed image. They also present and opportunity to investigate the relative contrast ratios. If one panel appears to have similar blacks but the whites are brighter compared to the other panel, then one can conclude that the contrast ration is greater.




These images are being reproduced by whatever monitor you are looking at. The monitor is imposing some variation or error into what you are seeing. For a more accurate way to analyze the image I often employ a free application called ColorPic. I set the Point to 5 so that it samples a 5x5 set of pixels from the image. Wherever you place the pointer the ColorPic tool will display RGB values. The absolute values are not relevant other than to indicate color balance and to do comparative measurements between the two panels. Thes RGB values do not represent the RGB color data for the panels in the image. In the following images you can see that I took some comparative white and black samplings. These are true regardless of what you monitor is displaying.





NOTE: If the above images are properly white balanced and the brightness and contrast are set right, then the following would be true. The WhiBal card would have all three RGB numbers very close in value. The White Reference card should also have very similar RGB values. The White Card values should be very close to or match the number displayed in the same reference window. The black borders surrounding the reference windows should have very low numbers approaching zero. The screen border area above the reference cards should have values very close to 0.

I think that pretty much covers the test images and what all the included items are. For the upcoming comparisons I will always have two reference panels on either side of the two panels being compared. This has required me to setup different locations for the Perfect-Pixs reference cards and also relocate the corresponding projected reference windows.

For the very first set of comparisons images I present (within the next day or so) I will do a very comprehensive presentation of the images include for comparisons purposes.

Please feel free to post questions at any time if something is not clear. If you don't feel comfortable posting a question then please send me a Private Message. I will post the question and answer for everyone's benefit. More often than not, if one person has a question, other people are also wondering about the same thing. So please don't hesitate to ask questions one way or another. In the past questions have often lead to better procedures and/or brought considerations to light that had been overlooked. IMHO, there is no such thing as a stupid question.

Also, if you think you have a better explanation of something, please feel free to jump in and post it. The more ways something is explained the more understanding will be passed on to those who are interested.

I know I for one am interested in the results and process...

As I indicated in the previous post, if you have better or more in depth explanations of anything, then please feel free to post them. I do not profess to be an expert photographer or even terribly adept at using the WhiBal card. So please feel free to fill in the gaps.

When you refere to the first photograph, I am not sure which one you mean. Please be specific.

There is always the possibility of someone screwing something up, and that of course includes me. If you see that I am in some way screwing this up please tell me how.

If you do post any counter pics please include the Reference Gray that we are using:

Behr Exterior ULTRA UPW #4850
Quart Custom Tint
0 12 0 Lamp Black
0 02 1 Brown Oxide
0 01 0 Medium Yellow

This tint is derived from the Xrite N7 tint that was passed on by wbassett. I know that it is not tested yet and may well not be as close to neutral as you may like. If you care to tweak the tint to a true neutral with an RGB 190 190 190 that would be fantastic and I would gladly repaint my reference panels and cards.

Without the inclusion of a Reference Gray that can be prepared by anyone in North America, it is really quite difficult to judge what is being presented. I think we would agree that "any" mix should out perform a flat gray paint. To demonstrate that may be of some interest but the point is that Black Widow (AAA) is supposed to be the "Best". To make such a claim then it must compared to something better than a flat neutral gray paint. Since you were unable to get the DULUX paint that I had used I switched to the Behr 4850 Write tint since it is available to both of us and anyone else in North America that wished to present a meaningful comparison.

P.S. I am not using the name ididit2 on another forum. It is rather presumptuous to assume that anyone that poses questions or offers up some applications advice would have to be me using an inappropriate method to access a forum. I would not even know how to do such a thing.

Mech, could you also provide the exact Valspar base paint that you recommend for the correct formulation of Black Widow (AAA)?

Thanks

I searched the Black Widow website and all I could find that is even close to a proper specification for the Valspar base was this:
I looked at the Valspar website and this looks like the stuff: http://www.valspar.com/products/product/Ul...amel_Paint.html
Product: 210156 Series

I also contacted the Lowes in the Toronto area and they will not ship the paint because they cannot ensure that a courier won't allow it to freeze in transit. My contact in the Toronto area also indicated they would be willing to help me out but they can't be sure the paint won't get frozen in transit either. I will probably have to wait until May when we pass through Toronto on our way to London I will get a quart of this base to go with that lonely orphan bottle of Auto-Air Aluminum Base "Fine".

Sure hope mech get's back to us with those corrective instructions before it is time to start mixing the 4oz. bottles of AAA with 16oz. of the various bases. What the heck am I going to do with all that left over Bermuda Beige!?

I picked up a microscope camera at lunch time so the macro photos are going to be available as soon as I can get it setup on my computer.

Black Widow Website? What's that? The Shack?

Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel.

As long as you're civil I'll remain so!

Now I've got a few questions. Why exterior paint again? The stuff that I have tested with (Behr and Dulux) both stink of lots of chemicals. Do you have the MSDS sheets on these? You may want to check what type of VOC's you're introducing here. Anyone with respiratory problems, stay away from the exterior stuff.

And again, why are we doing this here? No one here wants a Black Widow screen. Black Widow is for the person who has enough lumens to combat both a gray screen and ambient lighting. This is for the person who entertains lots of people watching the game or has the wife that wants lights on. I'm unsure as to it's application and intended purpose here.

But since you started I'll show what it does.

Here is a shot of some panels that are very similar in shade. The one laying horizontal is a BW, the one to the right hanging is BW, the one in the middle is Dulux Exterior Flat tinted 'Veil', the one on the left is True Value Winter Mountain. This is a photo with no flash and color corrected using the WhiBal card in the shot.



You'll note that Winter Mountain is a much lighter gray and that the Dulux Exterior Flat tinted 'Veil'. By spectro measurement, over 15 points in the RGB scale lighter. You'll also note that the panel laying horizontal when compared to the other two of the same shade, has more light hitting it and is angled back a bit so it doesn't fall. It's purpose was nothing more than to prop the WhiBal card.

Speaking of a WhiBal card, the process in which I use it is the same as any professional photographer would use it to get accurate white/color balance in a photograph. They use a neutral gray reference card to give the software in post processing something to work with. All of my shots are done in RAW format and then color balanced using a WhiBal card in Adobe Bridge. For shots that are taken with a projected image I use a projected white light from the projector shining onto the screen with a WhiBal card in it. If there will be flash pictures, there' will be a WhiBal reference image. So in summary each different source of light will require a new WhiBal shot. Google WhiBal and you can see a lot of videos on white/color balancing.

Here's a projected white light shot



Clearly they don't appear to be the same shade of gray anymore!

Same image as the non flash shot but this time with a flash



So let's go a little into the background of Black Widow. A couple years ago there was no science, no data, behind creating a paint mix. Everything was empirical - by eye. Well there was one individual doing readings but it was determined that all of the readings were incorrect. But that's another story. And then questions started to arise. Bill (wbassett) started researching into home theaters and ISF (Imaging Science Foundation) and actually started looking into the science side of things. HDTV, movies, broadcast TV, etc are set upon a standard. That standard is D65. Professional calibrators purchase thousands of dollars worth of equipment to calibrate TVs to this standard. So where does it fit in with us? Well as pj's become more prevalent on the market, manufacturers started shipping them with D65 settings. And some of them are probably pretty close - not my mitsubishi though . So if you have a pj that is calibrated to D65, you have an image source that is made using D65, don't you think the screen should be D65? The obvious answer is yes, or at least very close to it. So how does one get to that point? Well it was probably around then when Bill (wbassett) discovered neutrality in paints. There are paints on the market that are neutral and will reflect everything equally. It was revolutionary at the time and yet wbassett was shunned and scorned and called cuckoo by the likes of some of the folks right here posting in this thread! These folks were mixing greens, reds, blues, micas, lamp blacks, etc in order to empirically discover the magic solution. All the while simple off the shelf neutral grays sat on the shelf and accumulated dust. The other prevalent method at the time was laminate screens. Laminates have withstood the test of time and still today, Designer White is the closest D65 DIY match for a white screen. Kilz2 comes in pretty close too if anybody wants advice based on data. So Bill moved on and dragged me with him! lol! We found our new home and decided to build it upon doing things the right way. Bill already had a relationship with the head of the Color Science department at RIT and he even took a course in color theory. Me? I bought a spectrophotometer. It was then that the walls and ceilings started to come crashing down. Everyone was tested and most turned out poorly. And our mantra kept being neutral, neutral, neutral. We have oodles of data and oodles of spectrum images. And then there was a big shift, mainly because Todd realized that what Bill was saying all of these past two years was absolutely correct. And the EasyRGB webpage that Bill told him about a couple years ago all of sudden sprouted new wings at AVS. Sometimes credit was given but most times not. Or it was simply over looked. Regardless, because of our work and our data gathering, most folks don't use micas anymore. We proved that they cause a color shift in an image. We proved that when magnified they present a prism like effect. And mostly we proved that within it's current state, mica shouldn't be used. So in doing these two things, we pretty much wiped out Todd's bread and butter. EasyFlex, FnEasy, and the pearl topcoats. You'll notice no talk of them anymore. It was somewhere around that point that Bill actually gave Todd the idea of aluminum. He shrugged it off and thought nothing of it. He ran back to AVS and started up a lot of good stuff there. He embraced the idea of neutral paints and ran with it. Well we were left with a good idea and someone had to do it. So we did!

So what's the big deal? First off it's simple. One quart of paint and two bottles of Auto Air Aluminum fine. Why aluminum? Because unlike mica, which refracts, aluminum reflects. Aluminum is what they use to make the mirror you look into in the morning. We started out using a roofing product that contained aluminum to make our product but then benven came along and told us about Auto Air Aluminum, we made something simpler! There's always talk of a Black Widow Team and blah blah blah. But I view it as the culmination of a lot of different people throwing in advice and suggestions to get us to where we're at. Outside of Bill and myself, there's SmokeyJoe who's given me a wealth of knowledge in determining how to get good measurements. He's also ISF certified! Then there's benven who is mostly a drop in every other week or two but the knowledge he has imparted on us is vast. He gave us the Auto Air Solution. There's cynical2 who is our other moderator. He keeps me grounded during times like these. And there's muzz and bidzer who without any instruction other than a formula went out and painted these screens up. Thanks guys! And there's Harpmaker! Don keeps me in check when I start to babble as I am now. Don also has a spectro and is basically doing independent testing of this stuff. Amazingly he's coming to the same conclusions we have. Unfortunately he wants something darker...


Wow! That was brief? What's funny in this DIY screen world is that you wonder what's gonna happen next. You're proud of what you've accomplished. Sometimes egos get in the way of realistic. And Todd, if you'd only bought a spectro 2 years ago instead of all the other crap you've bought, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation would we?

So Black Widow... It is a base and aluminum. Verified bases that work are Ben Moore flat, PPG flat, Valspar Flat enamel and regular flat, SW flat, and probably many more. One that is verified not to work is Behr Exterior 4850 flat. It's not that it does anything to the aluminum, it works fine with aluminum. It's just that my local store which made up a Bermuda Beige match for me turned to not match Bermuda Beige and the panel/mix had a red push. The aluminum however worked fine. Unverified non-working bases....? I don't know, ask Todd. And Dulux apparently doesn't work but I'll be verifying that one!

That's too much typing for me for a day.... maybe more tomorrow. I look forward to this to see if you can actually make Black Widow!

And no, the PS was not directed at you Todd. And no, I did not have multiple log ins at AVS. Where I work we have a break room that is used by over 70 people daily for breaks with their laptops. We all use the same dsl line and the particular individual is a good friend who now has a Black Widow screen and is extremely proud of it. Do you want me to have John come here too? There are at least 4 more that I know of who use that line for access to the internet and go to AVS. I wonder if they were banned too? It was pretty obvious that Garry doesn't want me there and I don't care that I was banned.

Let me know if anything crossed the line Todd. I'll delete it for you. If we can remain civil I'd be happy.

Oh and here are the Black Widow vs Dulux shots. Remember this is an ambient light screen paint so there's a lot of ambient light. Also remember that these two panels are virtually one in the same shade wise. The ones above were taken yesterday but these were taken a week or two ago (?). The Dulux panel is on the right and the BW panel is on the left





I guess there's a couple too many...


mech

Just a couple of quick points regarding mech's post.

First of all thank you for contributing to the general understanding of the members here at LumenLab. While it may seem out of place here as time goes on the DIY Projectors will no doubt get brighter and the general theory and knowledge is of interest to the members.

The reason I have used the Behr ULTRA 4850 is that without anything other than a neutral or at least near neutral gray tint it has performed on par with anything else I have tried and that includes many mixes. It is not very informative to compare the Black Widow (AAA) to a flat paint. I could add some satin polyurethane and demonstrate a significant improvement over the unmodified flat paint. Unfortunately the DULUX paint that you purchased is not the same as what I had found to stand up fairly well against the initial BW-AAA that I had tried so that is not a common denominator either. It was an unfortunate miss-connect that was my fault because I was too lazy to continually type out the full name CIL-DULUX, Masonry, Stucco, & Siding, Exterior Flat #????, tinted "Veil" (00NN 53/000). It is and isn't flat. It acts like a flat paint as far as viewing angle goes but it does not have the usual dingy whites of a gray flat paint. That is also true of the Behr 4850. As far as your "ICI Guy" it does not surprise me that they seemed to know little about the reflective characteristics of the exterior paints. My contact at the Behr Color Laboratory had little to contribute on that either. I suspect the guys at the paint companies that actually know something about this are pretty hard to get to and would not be inclined to share this sort of proprietary information.

We could use something like the Sherwin Williams "Gray Screen" but then the first comparisons would be between SW Gray Screen and the Behr 4850 ~N7.5 and the DULUX. That will be a hard sell fro me since SW only sells gallons and if they are $60 in the states who know what they cost here. In the end anything that does not perform as I have seen the exterior matte paints perform will not be of much value.

The problem is that without a common reference this is not going to show much. I have no way to compare your photographs to mine.

This is Tiddler's thread.

We are not going to allow posts harassing a member who is just trying to post some information he/she has collected and wants to share here on LumenLab.

Mech, please be more respectful in your posts and less harassing.


I think it's do to others as you would like done to you. Not do to others AS they do to you.
Keep it civil or the MODS will

Thank you and carry one.

Some 200x Microscopic Photos


RS-MaxxMud



BW-AAA CIL Matte

Second Try



BW-AAA Behr 4850

Second try



Mech,

In your first post you seemed to be indicating that I was making or about to make some mistakes.

Please explain, as I do wish to do an accurate and proper comparison as well as explore the effect the use of these different bases will have on the results.

To my knowledge the Black Widow (AAA) is simply 4 parts latex paint tinted PPG "Bermuda Beige" (427-2) mixed with 1 part Auto-Air Aluminum Base Fine. The possible color match errors for the various paint brands not withstanding, is there something I have gotten wrong?

Sorry Todd but I made a post about the history and about what has taken place and I have been 'warned'.

I thought I was honest and civil and yet the moderator thought otherwise.

mech

The mod likely took offense at the perceived "tone" of some post you made. If you can satisfy the mod team - the warner in particular - that you were misunderstood or otherwise show your good intentions regarding future discourse within this particular topic the warn can be removed by petitioning the warner.

Hi mech,

If I understood the moderator's post, they were not suggesting you not post information. They were simply suggesting we keep our postings on the technical topic and refrain from any comments related to past, possible, or future personal issues.

My purpose is to investigate this rather puzzling disconnect between what I and a couple of other people have observed and what you and others who have adopted Black Widow (AAA) are reporting. By approaching the investigation with a determination to take my usual rigorous comparison methods to a new level I also hope to redeem some of my damaged reputation and credibility.

My original hypothesis was that the Black Widow (AAA) samples were being compared to samples or indeed whole screens that were significantly lower in performance even though they were neutral. That still seems like it may be the case and we have not moved one way or the other in resolving that question. To further support the possibility of this "apples to oranges" hypothesis, it seems there is a common trend among those reporting positive results. Many of these people have what I would consider to be brighter than average projectors. That includes your projector and many with presentation projectors like Bill.

The other possibility is that there is indeed something significantly different about the Valspar paints. Maybe they are far more translucent than most wall paints. Maybe there is some peculiar chemical characteristic that pushes the aluminum to the surface and does so such that the flakes are very randomly oriented. There is always the possibility that all of us that have reported that it only seems to be like a dark gray with a moderate amount of gain boosting have mixed it wrong. It may be that all of us have been enjoying higher performing screens than others and did not known it.

I only know that when I set out to implement the Black Widow (AAA) in Behr and CIL paints I was expecting similar results and in looking at the fundamental use of aluminum over mica I would demonstrate the benefits of aluminum as well as make Black Widow (AAA) more accessible to those who do not live near a Lowes.

So if you are interested in getting to the bottom of this and don't mind collaborating with someone who is not a sanctioned member of the development team, then please do so. You have nothing to lose, but as always I will be open and honest about everything I do and everything I observe. In the end I will draw some conclusion whether it be negative, positive, or inconclusive. So far I am only puzzled by the divergence of our results.

So please at least point out anything that you see as an error on my part. It really is only in your best interest because when my suspension expires at AVS, this thread will be summarized and duplicated for the benefit of the members there as well. If I am doing something wrong here, and this exploration is inherently unfair in it's treatment of the Black Widow mix, then at some point there will be wider spread exposure to it. Better for both of us to cooperatively explore this puzzle here under the watchful eyes of some very personally detached and unbiased moderators, than wait for this to be exposed to a much wider audience at AVS and then start picking nits.

As for the relevance to the lower lumen crowd here at LumenLab, I suspect they will be continually increasing the brightness of their projectors, they are true DIYers and therefore curious about the screen paint mixes and testing methods, and they probably remember your promise of some lighter shades of Black Widow. I have already offered some white screen options and the sort of "eyes on" testing that I do along with the scientific testing you do with instrumentation is relevant as well.

Upon reading the above post I found some significant errors, and corrected them. In some cases that changed a negative statement to a positive one.

Please reread the previous post before passing judgment or replying..

I was really hoping that mech would at least point out any obvious flaws in the Black Widow (AAA) preparations and methods to be employed in comparing them but that may not happen. There is a member "harpmaker" at AVS who is very knowledgeable with regard to the Black Widow mixes and also quite an objective individual. If I can find a way to contact him I will request that he oversee the preparations and comparisons. Otherwise I may be left to make due with just the information I have been able to glean from the Black Widow threads on the different forums.

If anyone else thinks I may be mixing or applying the Black Widow incorrectly please speak up before I waste time and paint. Thanks.

MM did some testing with a lighter version and even has some suggestions that sound very interesting to get it lighter and retain the benefits of using aluminum.

A few things have come out of all of this, and it is that there is a difference between one paint brand to the next, and even within the same brands bases can be very different.

For the guys here I think the original BW will be way too dark and that has been stated. A lighter version is being beta tested, and as I mentioned MM has offered up some ideas and thoughts based on his years of experience with using more complex paint applications. Also one thing about MM is that if anyone can spray this or get it spray-able, he can.

So yes, there is a lighter version out there. Some of these guys here though could probably get away with using straight Black Jack or Henry without hot spotting, but I can't say that for certain.

Some of the things I think that are getting lost in all of this is

• Not all bases and paints are created equal
• It probably is a good idea to use what a person(s) that developed something recommend as well as follow directions or results could be significantly changed
• Even if it ends up that the required lumen output needs to be 1200 or higher for raw light power, this is a darker gray that seems to have a positive gain (since there is a reduction in viewing cone, no matter how slight or major, that indicates gain), it doesn't hot spot, and it is still dead bang neutral.

If nothing else, that last one is rather significant when it comes to darker grays. Retaining color accuracy (neutrality), and adding some gain without hot spotting is a worthy thing to note right there.

I didn't post to argue, rather point out some things that seem to be lost because of some of the debating and questions. The bottom line is it's still very easy to make for those that have access to what was actually used and tested, and it is also still very neutral, one of the better neutral grays out there too when it comes to neutral specifications. Will it be ideal for everyone? Of course not, there isn't even a commercial screen that fits that description.

This positive aspect of what Todd is presenting is that paints do differ. I can't help out with any lower lumen testing since my projectors are rather bright, and the AX200 is even brighter than the Sharp I have. I do know someone that has a Sony that not only has lower lumens, but also some age on the bulb which also drops the brightness some. I can see if he's willing to set it up for some tests sometime and I certainly have no issues trying that. If it ends up that there is a lower lumen drop off point (which I have no doubt there) then that's also something good to identify what that point is.

For you guys here though, if anything in a Munsell shade of N8.5 or darker is too dark for your projector, then this will be too. Like I said, we are beta testing the lighter version now, and MM also has some ideas... but if they end up getting too complex or if the results are no different than other light gray advanced mixes that are already out there, I'd be inclined to say stick with those for a light screen.

I have finished the modifications to the Comparison Images.

Click here to see the complete set.

The first two are more for setup, followed by the calibration images.

If you notice any problems like lines down the center or the images is in front of the reference borders etc please let me know.

wbassett, could you comment on these 200x images of the CIL and Behr versions of the BW-AAA

BW-AAA-CIL-Matte



BW-AAA-Behr-4850


Could you post a comparable photo of the BW-AAA-Valspar-Flat?

Could you please confirm that the "easy part" is mixing 4 parts flat latex paint tinted PPG "Bermuda Beige" (427-2) with 1 part Auto-Air Aluminum Base Fine?

Also could you confirm that what "was actually used and tested" and/or what is being recommended as the base paint is Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Flat Enamel Flat Base 1, # 210156? It was tinted via computer color match to PPG "Bermuda Beige" (427-2)?

Just getting the ingredients and mix ratios confirmed would be very helpful.

Update

I just added a couple of images to the Comparison Images collection. Click here to see the complete set of Comparison Images.


I have all the sample panels primed now. The Reference White (Kilz2) panels are painted and ready. I will paint the two Baseline Reference Gray panels tonight.

I have setup the new improved Comparison Images. I think tonight I will try to do a comparison between the Kilz2 panels and the Behr 4850 white panel. This will provide an opportunity to try out the new images and provide some supplimental images for the Bright White Behr ULTRA 4850 thread.


I am having difficulty getting the basic ingredients and mix information confirmed by the Black Widow developers themselves so I will need to get someone to review the information I have. I really would like to do this exploration as correctly as possible. For that I will need to get an unbiased person to oversee the work since I cannot seem to get this information from the horse's mouth so to speak.

If anyone is willing to help me by passing my email address to Harpmaker at either AVS or HTS please send me a PM.

I have had it reported that the DIY projectors are putting out 150 to 200 lumens. Then I see this post by arizonavideo where he states that his projector is putting out 485 ANSI (Lumens?). Not to mention he is using the projector outside.



So it would seem that this may not be such a low lumen crowd after all.

I still would caution against using a screen paint as dark as Black Widow. The information posted in this thread is more to share some interesting experiments rather than put forward a solution that will work for everyone, let alone those with lower lumen projectors.

I was hoping to get started painting up the first of the BW-AAA panels tonight but I did not finish the Reference Gray panels last night and I got busy with the white sample comparisons. I am also a bit hesitant to start mixing up the Black Widow with mech's comment about me already making mistakes with it. If I can't get any confirmation from the BW Team or some knowledgeable but objective individuals then I will have to move forward anyway. I suspect the photograph that shows the quart of base and one 4oz. bottle of AAA beside it may have given mech the impression that I think that is the proper mix ratio. Of course if you were going to use the entire quart to make up enough for a whole screen then you would need two 4oz. bottles per quart of base paint. I hope that is all he was referring to.

The show must go on, Eh!?

Hi Tiddler!

Mech sent me a PM on your behalf and here I am.

As a small introduction to the forum, I am one of the beta testers of the Black Widow mixes. My projector is a Viewsonic PJ503D and I have been interested in DIY screen paints for about 5 months. I am a sprayer and not a roller of paint.

I'm really not sure where all the confusion is coming from concerning the BW AAA mix, it is simply 4 parts base paint that has been tinted to match PPG "Bermuda Beige", to which is added 1 part Createx Auto-Air Aluminum (fine). The base paint must be tinted so that when the AAA is added the resulting mix will be a neutral gray. The simplest mix is two 4 oz. bottles of AAA added to a quart of tinted base paint.

The base mech used for most of the testing is Lowe's Valspar interior flat latex enamel (I forget the part number), when Lowe's mixed my batch up I forgot to specify enamel, so mine is just the flat int. latex; again, I don't have the part number handy, but I can look it up and post it if it will help.

I'm looking forward to the results of your testing! It is becoming clear that all paints are not created equal, and some perform better with AAA than others. As long as only colored tints were added, base brand and type didn't seem to matter too much; that is apparently not the case when adding things like mica or aluminum flakes that return light back in a directional manner.

I would like to make a comment on something you said about comparing Black Widow to flat grays being a "apples to oranges" test. From a certain perspective this could be true, but remember that BW was designed to be SIMPLE to make. It was designed to be an easy replacement for Off-The-Shelf, One-Can-Solutions (such as True Value "Winter Mist" or Sherwin-Williams "Gray Screen") that are just flat gray paints. It really can't get much simpler than adding two 4 oz. bottles of aluminum paint to your quart of base paint and stirring. From this perspective, it is quite valid to compare BW to flat grays since it shows what can be gained by just adding some aluminum. I won't go into the history of BW (as I know it); I'll just say it's amazing how much work it took to make BW a SIMPLE thing to mix. Mucho props to the developers!

If I understand your testing in this thread correctly, it will compare the BW AAA mix (in various bases) to other paints or mixes that might also have a sheen that could compare with the angular gain of the BW AAA mix; as well as flat reference grays. Sounds cool!

I notice that your PC microscope takes sharper photos than mine. I assume you have the newer Intel QX5; mine is the first model of the QX3.

Here is a 200X photo of my BW AAA 4:1 mix. The color is not correct and the focus is a bit wonky, but it's the best I could get with that sample.

This image is about 1/32 inch wide in real life.

Harpmaker,

Glad to have your input. Actually I have asked several people to get in tough with you and pass on an invitation to oversee these experiments and point out any errors in mixing or application. I don't really think there is any real confusion regarding the mixing ratios or recommended ingredients. I simply wanted the information verified to avoid any errors and as well as to avoid people having to take my word for it so to speak.

I have also made attempts to pass the same invitation to Prof. He is also quite familiar with the Black Widow and if anything has demonstrated a slight negative bias towards me personally. To have Prof join you in overseeing these trials would be a real bonus if you have any influence in that.

The comparisons here are meant to demonstrate "IF" there is any significant difference between BW-AAA mixed with different bases as well as the recommended Valspar Flat Enamel that benven will acquire from his local Lowes and send to me. Once that issue has been addressed, BW-AAA will be compared to the best off-the-shelf gray paints tinted to a very similar shade of gray.

The only deviation from the standard Black Widow AAA formulation that has occurred to me, is to make the 4:1:1 BW-Light to compare to the the more commonly used ~N8 off-the-shelf solutions that I am familiar with.

Thanks again to Harpmaker for providing this simple but crucial information.

Now that the technical details for mixing Black Widow (AAA) have been confirmed we can get on to the trials at hand. Here is the original plan:I have decided to avoid any confusion and restrict the comparisons to various incarnations of BW-AAA and some known off-the-shelf neutral or near neutral gray paints.

There are two primary questions to answer by performing these trials. First is to establish if indeed there is a difference in the results when BW-AAA is mixed in different bases or is it that different people trying different bases were comparing the BW-AAA to different off-the-shelf solutions. Indeed many who have given high praise to the results they achieved by implementing BW-AAA were comparing it to a previously white screen material or inferior flat wall paint.

The second question actually arises out of the first, and concerns the claims of "blacker backs & whiter whites". Simply put, blacker than what, whiter than what.

So to that end I will start with this list of comparisons to retrace some of my steps:

1. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ BW-AAA-Behr-4850
2. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ CIL-Matte-Universal-Gray
3. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ Behr-4850 (~N8 Gray)
4. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ CIL-Matte-Veil
5. BW-AAA-CIL-Matte ~vs~ CIL-DULUX-Veil

The we will compare the CIL-DULUX exterior flat to the Behr 4850 Exterior Flat to see if the performance is comparable between these two off-the-shelf paints.

I hope to get the previously identified set of photo comparisons completed this evening and uploaded to Photo Bucket but I won't be able to review and present them until tomorrow. If you are eager to see the results then keep an eye on the Photo Bucket folder tiddlerPics>The Black Widow Wars>Photo Comparisons.

Tiddler, may I recommend to make sure each test panel, and it's description, is clearly marked whether it is an interior or exterior paint. That will prevent much potential confusion.

I have finished the photo sets, click here.

I also finished painting the Behr 4850 Reference Gray panels. Tomorrow we will see how they compare to the BW-AAA-CIL-Matte and the CIL-DULUX Masonry, Stucco, & Siding Exterior Flat paint tinted "veil".

I woke up early this morning so I started on the BW-AAA mixes. I decided to go with the Pittsburgh Paints first. It is the closest I have to the recommended Valspar, at this time.

I received a PM from someone who is well acquainted with my history and approach to investigating various DIY screen paints. To my surprise and disappointment, he suggested that too vigorous an effort to pursue these particular trials may have the adverse effect of revealing my motive to disprove the effectiveness of the Black Widow mix.

So for anyone who may share his belief/suspicion that my motive is to disprove, then let me assure you it is not! In fact I may be the most disappointed in the results I have had so far. My original intent was to provide a more realistic demonstration of the benefits of the use of aluminum and in doing so extend the usable base paints to include Home Depot's products.

some of my favorites so far...

here the Behr AAA distinquishes itself in having the most natural and greatest variation of skin tones of the group.


and here exactly why i'm a fan of black levels... gorgeous display of contrast and black levels.


i've always said... when it comes to greys... what's most important is finding one where the loss of your flesh tones, dingy yellows, and crushed white levels is one that you can live with. greys will make nearly any color richer and more pleasing to the eye... except for those 3 areas.

The BW-AAA-Behr-4850 may be brighter but if you look at the all white image I am sure it is hot spotting.



That is why I did not use it for the initial comparisons to other gray screen samples.

It doesn't appear to be hot spotting. And my Behr 4850 tests showed that it was not a good candidate for BW. The numbers showed a hard red push. I don't have anything with me but I can get them for you later tonight.

Did you try 1850 yet? I have some of that but I have yet to try it. I have a suspicion that it's the additives in exterior paint that is the problem. I'll test out the 1850 tomorrow evening.

And the QX5 takes nice images. Double the resolution! It's got a 'super brite' led for a light.

mech

You have tried Behr 4850 tinted BB to add AAA to for making BW-AAA?

Yep! Worked well aluminum-wise but not neutral wise. It was way out of whack. I even painted a panel up. Does well with skin tones and such but it's pushing red so I'd expect that.

And I have the 1850 as well just to see if there's a difference between the two. Call it a hunch but I think if you take away the additives of exterior paint, I'll bet it will work fine.

I also have some Dulux half ellen which was reported to not work either. And then we had that commercial flight simulator guy show up and tell us that it worked exactly as advertised.

When are you going to mix up the PPG stuff? I thought that was first.

mech

And how did these two panels turn out? Is the left one darker than the right one? That's what it seems. Any shots without flash or projected light?

mech

There is one coat on the BW-AAA-PPG panel now. I probably mixed enough for three coats total. Should I only apply two coats or use up the rest of the BW-AAA-PPG and put on three coats?

Then I will try the Behr UPW 1050 with the BB tint.

Then the Benjamin Moore and finally the SICO.

Benven has said he would get some Vlaspar Flat Enamel from the Lowes near him. He will ship me half when the weather is a little warmer.

I'd do at least two.

I never thought of 1050. You're gonna be waiting awhile for that paint!

mech

mech, can Lowes tint Kilz2?

Did I understand correctly that you have mixed the AAA in ratios other than 4:1 with Valspar (BB) and it still comes out neutral?

Not sure but I'd assume so.

Yepper! Dead on neutral! That's all been posted for a couple weeks. It's all in the further investigations thread part II.


mech

This then is very different than anything else we have ever worked with. Usually the ratio of blue pushing pigment to compensating pigment is critical. This is a very curious difference between Aluminum and Lamp Black, aside from the other more obvious differences.


With regard to tinting Kilz2, it is quite inexpensive, obviously self priming and if it can be tinted Bermuda beige might make the ideal base for the BW-AAA mix.

Setup Review

Before I start presenting the photo comparisons I thought a quick review of the setup would be useful.

Ambient Lighting: Is provided by a 15 watt bulb, rated at 115 lumens. It is hanging approximately 1.5' bellow the projector. That places the bulb 14' 3" from the screen.
Click image to enlarge.


Projector: Optoma HD72, Throw distance 14' 3". The lamp was set to "Bright Mode".
Each photo set includes the contrast and brightness calibrations images as well as the gray scale images.

001-BW-AAA-CIL-Matte -vs- BW-AAA-Behr-4850

Click here to view the entire photo set.


Visibly similar shades of gray in room lighting.
Click images to enlarge.


BW-AAA-Behr4850 appears to be hot spotting.


Visibly similar dark scene performance.



I did not do much more with the BW-AAA-Behr4850 due to the apparent tendency to hot spot.