Thanks Dazzzla seems that the angle is to big (I will by a cheap laser pointer to test this).
I attached a photo made this morning with 2 LEDs
Left is 5mm (I have no spec about this one) but seems 15 degree and run at 18mA and have 14 LUX at 1m
Right is 10mm and it seems to be only 4 chips not 6 as was specified and run at 70mA and have 54 LUX at 1m

OK I did some photos with the light output from my 30 x 10mm LED array.
The black lines are at 10cm from center and the LEDs are 1m away from wall.
The measurement are 1350LUX center 900LUX 10cm from center and 200LUX 20cm from center.
So the angle is about 15 degree to 50% of the power.
Still don't understand how the output is only 1lumen probably the dimmest projector on this forum .

How much of that 20 cm square would you say you're using?

I estimate that square is about 36 lm. (<- I actually used math for that estimate (but I'm not sure I did the math right) starting with ~900 average lux)
I'd guess the total light output is less than 50 lumens (<- that one's a guess)

If the lenses and LCDs in the projector absorb 90% of the light that leaves you with about 5 lumens, max. As we've all seen, the "max" number rarely materializes.

A quick note:
I was able to get 1.95 lumens (based on an average of 25 lux in an 11" square) from a single Cree "R2" LED running at 700 mA (~2.45 w) using grossly inferior optics and a presumably less transmissive LCD.

Well, the 20cm square isn't the issue, it's the 3 or 4 cm circle that's the projector's triplet that counts.

Still a 20cm square is a VERY small area, 0.04 m^2. I used an average figure of 990 lux ((900*4+1350)/5), but that still gives me a ridiculously low number for total lumens, like 39.6. When you consider that only (about) 7% of the light makes it through an LCD, that makes about 2.7 lumens, IF you can get all that light through the projection lens. This tells me that less than half of the light from your LEDs is making it to the projection lens.

When you use the laser remember that it’s polarised so you may need to rotate it.

DJ

Keep in mind that there is a polarizing recycler, dichroic filters and RGB LCDs.
So the efficiency of this projector is going to be much better than a DIY.
DJ

I think this commercial projector is a 3-LCD model, which would mean 21% or so of his light should get through (the LCDs at least). So, if the LCDs were the only thing absorbing the light he'd be left with 3X more (8.1 lumens).

you all have right the output will be around 40 lumen for the center beam.
About the eficentcy of this projector is about 11.5% original lamp 7000lumen / spec output 800 ANSI lumen
but I have now a max 2.5% of the input light is on the screen 40lumen input / 1lumen output
If the angle of beam is the problem then it mean that only 6 degree is used by the projector from 15 degree
If this is true I will need a light source with max of 6 degree this is hard to find.
I need to experiment with some lenses but I don't have any and the space in the projector is limited only 35mm from led to integrator lens.
Do you now where I could find some measurement done with LEDs similar with what I done.
I will maybe consider 1W LEDs 3x3 or 4x4 array or some 20-100W power LED but used only at max 15W and 6 degree optics for this.


This is a good information

Thanks.

This may help to understand:

Here’s a simplified diagram of a commercial projector. It shows only one LCD and I’ve left out the optics in between the reflector and LCD. The entrance is where the first flys eye array is located.
Click to view attachment
The rays converge down to the LCD and then diverge through the objective lens.




Now here’s what I believe is happening when the LED array is used:
Click to view attachment
This time the rays from the LEDs are diverging, even through they fit into the entrance the angles are wrong so not allot of the light from each LED is actually passing through the LCD. The light not passing through the LCD will simply be lost as heat.

DJ

You could try some small plastic lenes in front of each led. The ideal would be to collimate the rays from each LED so that they have a better chance of passing through the LCDs.

Diagram to follow…

Placing the LEDs at the small lens’s FL should create collimated beams. Even though this diagram shows some of the light missing the LCD, the integrator and condenser should take care of directing the rays to the LCD.
Click to view attachment

DJ

I was expecting that the integrator lens will help converge the light if not so and is as you draw then I need totally new strategy.
Hope you are wrong but seams to match my results. 1 lumen ...... I still could not sleep at night

This small lens looks like the integrator lens but probably are not an I don't now where I find so small lenses
The smallest lenses that I fond on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/8-Degree-Lens-For-Lux-L...1742.m153.l1262
are 8 degree and 26mm diameter maybe I can use a max of 3x3 array

The integrator will change the size of the beam but not necessarily the angle. For example the beam at the entrance may be 50mm and the integrator may reduce it to 30mm (just a geustimate ) but the angles will remain roughly the same.

What I mean by small lens, is just a plain lens not a reflector/lens combination for the high power LED. Your LEDs already have a 15° beam angle, by using a plain lens (PCX), the 15° beam could be made to be closer to 0° which is what the integrator is expecting.

There is another cause of light loss by not using collimated light. The integrator and PCE will both be working against you. Take a look at this description I posted recently. If the light isn’t collimated before entering the integrator then it won’t converge down to pass through the PCE and allot of light will be lost.

As to where to find small lenses, maybe surplus shed will have something. Or perhaps cannibalise some disposable cameras. What you will be looking for is a lens with a FL that is not too long as it won’t fit into the space you have. For example if you have 30mm between the integrator and the LEDs then you’ll need a lens that has about a 25-30mm FL. The diameters should be large enough to match the number of LEDs you are using and still fit into the entrance. Plastic would be preferable as you could cut them to size.

DJ

Edit:
Small credit card sized fresnels are another possible lens. As long as the FL was correct.

Thank you for all this info.
Do you think I need 30 small lenses or one big lens (I don't now how the big lens will react to multiple light sources )
If small lens need to be used then I have space only for 12mm diameter and probably to get all the light I will need to be close FL=10-15mm.

You’ll need individual lenses for each LED

You could possibly make your own lenses from acrylic spheres cut in half and polished. A half sphere will give you a FL of roughly its diameter.

This is so funny ... to make my own lens
I m really a beginner in optics and where do I get acrylic spheres or do I make those to.
But maybe this was a serious idea.
I prefer to get the lenses 30 or maybe 50 and not to build them.
I think the lenses are not really expensive.
Interesting to now that is possible to use spheres and the FL ~ D

Just jump in, beginner or not
Get yourself some acrylic spheres maybe off eBay, I think I have a link somewhere, cut them in half with a hacksaw, start sanding with decreasing grades of carborundum paper and finish them off with plastic polish. The surface won’t be a perfect plano but we are only refracting light, not imaging the LCD. You could also cut the corners off the spheres and make them square to glue all of them into an array. BTW this is totally untested.
If you can find pre-made lenses then that would be allot less work


Edit:
Here’s a link to one supplier.
Hirudin, this may be an option for you as well.

What I still not understand, why we can not use a fresnell... If your leds are situated in the F of the fresnell, it should work right? I don't know the name for it but a fresnell has more F points, but they are all situated on the same distance...

*edit*

When I was making an example of what I mean, I concluded why it will not work !

Anyway here is my drawing

I'm tempted... I've also looked into casting lenses out of... well some kind of clear liquid. There's a couple videos on YouTube where someone makes "gemstones" with some kind of clear stuff, acrylic I think. I'll try to find them in a few and post links here (I'll update this post).

[update]OK, here's the videos I was talking about...
This person is actually casting "clear polyester resin" to make pink prop gemstones, but the end result look like little pink lenses to me. I wonder if it's possible to DIY acrylic casting in a similar fashion.
Pt. 1
Pt. 2
Note: there is music in the background of both videos, it's not necessary for the music to be on.

Well, optical acryllic softens at about 100 deg C. (Actually a bit more than that, but not much.)

This is a totally acheivable temperature, and it's very simple to make a mold that will withstand this temperature.

I would work as follows: Make a mold from a softish material. Wood would actually be fine, though will require more polish afterwards. Make 1/2 sphere indentations spaced to where the LEDs actually sit.

Place a piece of acryllic sheet on top of the mold, and put it in the oven at about 300 deg F (150 deg C.) Leave it there for 20 minutes. This will be hot enough to melt the acryllic, but not hot enough to burn it. Puill out the mold and allow it to cool. Remoive the acryllic, and polish your little lens array. You don't even need to cut the lenses out, as they'd already be in an array at the appropriate distances. You can ignore the thickness of the flat component, as it's only the spherical sections that you're interested in.

LOL! I was already searching for the song on the internet, but thnx for mentioning it, I didn't know XD! Hehe

Will this gemstones decrease the angle? I can't believe they do... and they have to be perfect transparant

Grtz Keires

Today I was quite busy .
I recived the other projector from ebay is a Infocus Lp920 and the original spec was 220W UHP lamp and 2200 ANSI lumen the LCD have micro lens array small lens for each pixel this will add 50% more brightness but not in my test I still get 1lumen
This projector is really big 11.5kg double the weight of the old one and double the size.
This photos are before I opened to "repair"



Photo 3 with the bulb space smaller than the other projector

some more photo with optics and more
this is the LCD mount unfortunately this was broken and need to be glued
The glass I removed I believe is some UV filter or something to protect the LCD but I don't think I need this with the LEDs

And now the image ...... the green is 5pixel up and 1pixel right from original position I believe that someone dropped this projector and the LCDs unglued and the green LCD was affected I think I could solve this problem but not today

I got today a lens it is a magnifying lens got that for 2$ is big about 50mm diameter and similar approx 50mm FL with only one 5mm led the one that was in this test I got 3.5 times the brightness but may be even 4x this mean that the angle must be close to 0.


AHA I played little bit more and got 4.5x this is very good news I need to start building lenses thanks for the suggestions.

Interesting photo's what size has the lens then?

If you are refering at the testlens that I used to test the light output base on angle then is 50mm diameter but I will use smaller lens with smaller FL so probably 10mm

Today I fixed the green LCD that was unglued and out of position now is fine

And some photos with integrator lens and polarizer.
interesting there are 2 polarizers see red arrows

This is a screenshot from this projector after correcting the LCD position.

Now I did some tests using one 10mm LED at 70mA and one magnifying glass the result was
without the magnifying glass the Luxmeter riding from 1m distance was 60LUX
with magnifying glass a spot of 10cm diameter with 600LUX
the LED is used at 70mA and 3.05V this means that the power is about 0.2W and the LED produce about 5 lumen this mean 25lumen/W maybe more 30 to 40 but this is what I can use from it.
I hope the one that I ordered will have better efficiency.
The lens is a must so I need to find a way to use close to 50 x 10mm LED with lenses on 60x60mm

Now something interesting is that by removing the integrator lens and polarizer I get 70% more output light I tested on the second projector Infocus LP920
So now I have with the same LED array 1.7 lumen and I can really see a difference and I think I will be happy even with 10 lumen (even you probably don't agree )
My main projector will remain the smaller Telex-P600

Interesting

Magnifying lens? Do you mean an optic you mount on your LED? Can you make a photo of it plz ty

For test I used the magnifying glass you see in the second photo on this page is with a black handle. but I will need to build some lens and I need a lot of them probably 50 or bether to buy 1W led so I will need only 9 lens for a 3x3 array.
This is 1W-LED
on ebay it is specified as 70lumen but maybe I will get 50lumen and this will be total of 450lumen input with optics I will have 10% at output this 45lumen and my target is more than 20lumen so 45lumen will be great. but firs I wait for the 10mm-LED to come and see how bright they are if they have more than 10lumen then I will use them.

I found this on ebay Lens
the size is about 9.5mm it will work with my 10mm LED?

For $2 I'd say they're definitely worth a shot!

I ordered already and I will see
I also got today the 10mm LED from Topbright seems better quality I will make some picture tomorrow with the LED they have larger angle but similar brightness or less but in total more lumen about 18 lumen at 90mA and the light is not so blue.
I also ordered one CREE Q5 sample.

Photo with the new 10mm LED it seems to have 5-Chips as specified.

Dear Electrodacus, remember this post?

Well, I waited to said the idea, because I wanted to show you something first but my suprise wasn't anymore a suprise since yesterday (read http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24745)

Here is my idea then, use this LED, It will be easier to install and your light will be more concentrated! This led can produce 1120 lumen! Isn't this perfect for your XGA LED projector

Grtz Keires

Thank you this is an interesting LED
The spec are 65lm/W at 350mA and has 6-Chips in serial so Vf=18-22V 130degree if you look for a power led It my be a solution but it need a big cooler
I think a better solution is to use 4 or 6 CREE Q5 they are more efficient about 90lm/W at 350mA even 4 x Q5 will give you the same output for 40% less power and Q5 is only one chip with 90degree lens and because smaller surface only one chip is easier to collimate the light.

Some photo with the differences on the 2 type of 10mm led with the same spec but different output .
In this test I used 30mA for each LED.
the old led is more blue and the new one more green.

I don't get your last sentence, btw there excists 6degree optics for this OSRAM LED! 6degree's that is concentrated if u ask me!

Btw the big spot on your photo's is that a 6 chip? What's the size of that led?

The big spot is from the 5-chip LED and small spot is from so called 6-chip but I believe are only 4-chip not 6 and the size is 10mm for both.
and this is CREE Q5 an have better efficiency more than 90lumen/W compare with the OSRAM that is 65lumen/W

That's true, but a cree led takes more place than an OSRAM...

What is the price for this OSRAM and where you can buy this? If is not to expensive maybe I will give him a try

I just ordered one, the price is 58.90 EUR = 89.6100 CAD

That's pretty much, but you will only need one led... It gives a total of 1120 lumen!

Grtz Keires

This is a bit expensive for one LED but is a power LED up to 27W absolute max but for 20W x 50lumen/W = 1000lumen this is a lot from one LED but 20W is hard to dissipate this is a lot of heat.
On the other hand with more efficient LED 100lumen/W and about 107-120lumen at 350mA you will need 9, a matrix of 3x3 CREE and this are about 8$ for one so total cost will be close to OSRAM but the advantage is that it need only 10W not 20W for the same light output but you need more lenses. I have a limited space inside the projector and heat is a big concern now I have about 7W of power but not more than double can be handled in the small space so 10W will be great. I ordered this CREE on ebay and base on the results I will decide what type of LED I will use and how many 4 ,6 or 9 I do not need more than 25 to 50 lumen output and at 10% using lenses I will need more than 300 lumen input maybe even 4x100 lumen be enough now I have only less than 2 lumen output and Is possible to watch the news in the dark on 1sqm screen. The LCD on my laptop is 20LUX on low and 120LUX on high but on low is bright enough.

I understand what you mean and if the heat is a problem, the ostar isn't an option. But like you said it has other advantages, like you need less space, you don't need extra lenses (just a lens mounted on the led),... Anyway I wish you good luck with the cree leds! I'm going to try it anyway with the ostar We will see what will give the best result

Grtz Keires

I received the CREE led today and from firs evaluation is promising
1. 30% of the light is on the first 10 degree using the reflector this is good
2. Light is very green the normal value will be 50%red 100%green and 70% blue but the result is 35%red 100%green and only 25%blue for second projector (I relay need a 7000k or more) .
3. the LED driver have 5 output settings low med and high the other 2 are intermittent and from the first projector Telex P600 I have 0.8 lumen for low 2.52 for med and 3.75 lumen for high but high is not usable since the LED will get very hot even on med is quite hot .

No other test for now but I will do more test and add some photo by tomorrow.