Alrighty then, let's all get our thinking caps on for this, shall we?

Seems like a growing interest for HMI lamps particularly the 575w. Since I'm about to rebuild I, greedly, picked up a generic LuxLite brand from cheapbay which btw I couldn't find anything on it via web search. But the box, which it came in, states 95v. So, the closes specification for this type of bulb that I could find was this.
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95v @ 6.05 amps = 574.75w
Pretty cut and dry, huh. Only .25 away from a full 575. So, the question is - What ballast can we use with these types of bulbs...hmmMMM?

BTW, arizonavideo and Natural Newbie, I expect either of you two to jump in on this anytime soon...anytime... ...no rush...

Sim, Im not sure how appropriate your shooting for in terms of exact wattage,
but didnt someone use a 600w HPS mag ballast or somthing? Cant remember if it was arizonavideo...

Anyone remember this, or am i mistaken?

I am slowly working toward the 575 hmi. I got the Manufacturer to send me a sample base sfc 10-4, because I had such a hard time getting one. Also I have an GX9.5 base coming. I am going to try to get an e-ballast to work from an ELMO Solar Delux. Let me know if I can help with something. I have been doing a lot of research lately on all things 575.

Regards,
Traynor

I'd very much like to know also since I'm still sitting on my ASK 970 and the ballast is not working. I considered buying those parts BOSCO recommended but it would be easier for me to just chuck everything out and get a ballast that I could easily put in.

That's true yosh, I've even gone back and researched that AV used a 600w coupled with a 400w mag for either the 1000 or 1200 HMI. But see that would total...I'm thinking...40 to 50 lbs of ballast/s?

What I'm interested in is the digital electronic ones. Preferrably a 120/240v 600w HPS/MH which would come in about 10+ lbs. Based on some researching and discussions with AV, a 400w mag would generally put out about 3-4 amps, thats equivalent to about 360-480w's. A electronic 600w ballast generally (google searching) 5-6 amps, thats about 600-720w's. Now judging by the spec's above it seems these HMI's are dialed in with 95v @ 6.05 amps to a near perfect 575w with the correct ballast but, these HMI ballast cost in the range above $1000

So, I guess, my real question is what would a 600-720w electronic HPS/MH ballast do to a 575w HMI? Obvious nonacceptable explosion or acceptable short lived lamp? Or even worst, both short lived ballast and lamp? BTW, I'm still trying to narrow the search of what amperage is a 600w electronic putting out. I've seen one that says it will regulate the voltage between 90-240v's but no clue as far amperage .


Excellent, another with the same goal. Keep us posted Traynor

I exchanged several PMs with AZvideo on this topic about a year ago. Here's an excerpt of what he had to say on the subject



EDIT: Now, where he was finding S106 ballasts for $110, I don't know. A quick google search turned up prices that were considerably higher.

Tremendous effort guys, looks like we've keeping up with AV's work.

The thing is that the S106 is a coil and core. It's weight is the issue with my plans. A 400w S51 is heavy alone and I could imagine a S106's. Although, if AV says this will work then for those who have no problems anchoring that much weight - more power to them.

Here's a question though, the 400w S51 is a HPS ballast, is the 600w S106 also HPS? Does this mean an electronic 600w HPS ballast can also work. NaturalNewbie's current build (btw Newb, nice screenies!!) is using a 575w HMI with a 400w S51 with a total jump of 13 amps? Thats ummm...(ticking on calculator)1560w's PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG HERE Newb! I can just imagine the heat being generated by the ballast if this were true. Heck my S51 boosted to a total of 55uf was really hot that I had to put a dedicated fan to it.

EDIT: Oh, my bad he boosted his cap to another 13uf and not amps. oops.

Just so his comments exist somewhere other than my PM archive, here is AV's advice re: running a 575w on a S51 ballast.

Yeah, I remembered this too. I did a check an outlet with my trusty digital multimeter and it peaked out at 119.2v back down to 119v so I guess a electronic ballast will be getting that much but at what amps to the lamp. Now suppose the e-ballast does give off around 5-6 amps can we throttle down the voltage to the ballast almost matching the HMI's required wattage? I found that there was a 'volt dimmer' to do just that but with a maximum of 5 amps going in. But still I'm unsure what amps does a 600w digital e-ballast outputs or if it is also regulated internally.

with my recent trade with Sim (thanks btw) I will have a total 575w worth of mag ballasts...... hmmmm

Not to slip off-topic, but check out this baby.

http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/hamamatsu/L5431.pdf

A 3,000-hour 575w hmi sounds like the ticket. Now we just have to convince a Japanese dealer to ship to individuals, at a huge discount

Nice find Sensi.

Well, as AV directed me, this is my setup.

Venture S51 ballast with 13.5uF extra capacatance. (is this the best level, I don't know, I just had a 7.5 and a 6 laying around and it sounded good)

Stock venture ignitor

Osram single ended G22 base 575w w/SEL

As for ballast temp,
the Venture S51 has a coil temp code of C i think it was. which is 85*C
With the ballast in a wind tunnel, and ~35CFM being drawn across it, the coil temperature was 90*C with 20*C ambient air.

As for the lamp,
The arc flickered a bit for the first 20 lamp hours (during the first hour or so of it being on)

The flickering is gone now after 25 lamp hours

Also, i had to cycle ballast power a few times to start it once

Now it starts right away and doesnt flicker.

The lamp still has a green push, but not bad compared to the s400dd. Also, my power level may not be optimum for the lamp.

But, it looks dam good the way it is, and im not gonna mess with it.

for the ballast ( lightbulbemporium.com )
for the g22 base ( microlamp.com )
for the capacitors ( mcmaster.com )

Oh yea, some time next week hopefully

I will have an oscilliscope, so I can see what power the lamp is running at with my setup.

Awesome, passed 2000hrs is a great find but I suspect this comes with a real hefty price too.


Thanks Newb, for FINALLY dropping in

85C = 185F
90C = 194F

10F degrees difference not bad. Hmmm, must have been the type of S51 I had (sold to arkcom) which I believe was a Cooper brand name. I had found that S51 HPS comes in different models. The one I had was boosted from 48uf to 55uf and man, was it hot (unknown temp). BTW arkcom hope it works out for you seeing that your venturing into ballast piggybacking.

Still wondering if a 600w e-ballast is the ticket here. Further wondering, are these ASK projectors ballast also coil and core or are they electronics?

THAT'S what I wanted to hear!

Found Advance transformers spread sheet. Thought it would help everyone and anyone.

6000 hour 575watt metal halide.

http://www.bulbamerica.com/HSD-575w-UL-75-...lb-469-prod.htm

They are electronic ballasts in the Ask projectors and the Proxima 9100.

Dam, where are you guys finding these....geeez

Stick this in my files for laterz. Thank jj.

Ok, think I found just the coil & core thats very close to specs of the HMI, the only thing is it's a 'Pulse Start' ballast.

The M144 Venture 450w, seems there are 2 types: V90D8530 and the V90J8530. The J model seems to be very close. Wonder if AV can assist and provide some knowledge if a 'Pulse Start' is feasible.
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I was going to mention that there is a start of 816w on the D model and 540w operating while the J model has 738w start and 540 operating. I just need clarification on this...someone, anyone?

Volt x Amp = Watts

Average Rated Life (hr) 6000
Color Rendering Index (CRI) 80
Color Temperature (K) 7500
Nominal Voltage (V) 88.00

This makes me think this is just a 'regular' 575w bulb, and that is what the specs will look like if you run it at a lower voltage.

I just can't remember whether underdriving will make the color temp go up or down.

Down

So that disproves my theory

Very interesting night. I got the electronic ballast to light the 575 hmi, but the high tension box started to smoke. Not a good sign. I thinking about my next step.


Regards,
Traynor

So you got the electronic ballast from an ELMO Solar Delux to work with your HMI but it started smoking? Is the ELMO rated 575w?

Actually, underdriving will increase color temp, overdriving will lower it.

I thought so. Do you know what causes a high tension coil to smoke?

Regards,
Traynor

Right, Fritz edited it from over to underdriving now....

What exactly is a High Tension Coil, probe, pulse?

I am not sure. I have the service manual and all its says" is high tension box" or "high tension coil". I looked it up on the net and it says "produces high voltages to generate a spark"

Regards,
Traynor

Sounds like an igniter, remove it and see if the lamp still fires. If you use a probe start lamp with an igniter, I've heard it may cause problems.

I am not sure how to do that beacuse the high tension coil has one of the leads that connects directly to the lamp.


Regards,
Traynor

hey! it always said underdriving

didnt it?


(edit here:)point being though, dont buy that lamp, because it is costs $100 extra for no reason, you can underdrive a regular lamp and get similar results!

I really don't think so.

Underdriving a regular 575 watt lamp by 7v is not going to triple it's lamp life.

But I can see it lowering the lumens and raising the color temp. But not tripling the lamp life.

Well, I'm pretty sure the lifetime of lamps is nonlinear with respect to temperature. It may actually be exponential. So underdriving a 575 lamp by 7 v (or 7*6=42 watts) may very well increase its lifetime by a factor of 3. Keep in mind, that the difference between a 7mm arclength and a 25mm arclength is 1,000-2,000 to 15,000-20,000 hours. Increasing the arclength by 3 times, and thus reducing heat density by 1/3rd increases lifetime by almost 10 times.

That's what I'm hoping for. Based on the spec's I've provided for that particular HMI it requires 95v and 6.05 amps to RUN it. I'm sure it must take more than this to ignite the arc to START it. Examining my generic Luxlite I see no probe and just 2 filaments so I'm speculating it works just the same as a pulse start. If I'm right then the 450w pulse start ballast from Venture (J model) might be workable. There is a big hit with it’s 120v x 6.15 amps = 738w to start but then it drops down to 120v x 4.5 amps = 540w running, a difference of 35w shy of 575w. It’s the initial jump-start of 163w more is what I wonder about. Whether it’s life will be short lived by the first initial start up of the bulb. Or will the constant high wattage hits it takes each time it’s turned on do her in quicker.

To compare Newb’s use of a S51 HPS ballast. A particular Venture’s S51 V90D1912 model requires 3.7 amps to start at 444w and 3.8 amps to run at 456w at normal 55uf capacitance. He up’ed his capacitance to another 13uf and the lamp flickered for 25 pj hours thereafter ceased to light until after the 5th attempt. At what wattage was his ballast providing – start/run is what I’d like to know.

Well It looks like you guys have been busy.

I like the 3000 hour lamp but it is $185.

I do think the longer life lamps are made a little different. The main mode of failure is the quarts failing from the high pressure and higher heat per mm of lamp arc. If you used a lower pressure and a slightly larger shell you could keep the short arc and have longer life but the lower pressure will give a lower CRI. The one 3000 hour 575 I did see had a 75 CRI. The new one you found looks to have some new tech inside.

As far as the making a ballast work the main problem is all the long arc lamps run at a higher voltage so you can up the current but the voltage will always want to be higher than the what would be ideal.

The 575 when new is a 95V lamp but as the lamp ages the voltage will increase. For proper power regulation the ballast should make slightly less current at 100V but if your ballast has a higher voltage than what would be ideal the new power at 100V will be higher. So as the lamp ages the power will go up, this is bad.

The 600 watt HPS ballast is made to run a 110V 5.9A lamp which is the closest "normal" ballast I have found. The main problem is the lamp will make more and more power as it ages. (all MH lamps have their terminal voltage increase with age.) This is not what you want but is what you get. If you changed the cap to give a slightly lower starting power then the 1000 hour power level might also be lower and lamp life would be longer. This means a smaller cap, which will cost another $30 or so.


Let's assume you can always adjust the current to the level you want with the cap.

The real problem is having the ballast make the right voltage as the lamp ages. This means having the unloaded voltage of the ballast be about 1.75 times the lamp voltage so a 110V HPS ballast has a unloaded voltage of 1.75 x 110V (lamp voltage) or about 192V.

The 600 watt HPS lamp is a 110V 5.9A lamp and the ballast has a unloaded voltage of 225 or about 2 to 1 of the lamp.

What we would want is a ballast with about a 165V to 190V unloaded voltage. The closest ballast I have found is a 250 watt S50 with a 195V unloaded output. Two of these together with a slight overdrive would perform vary close to a stock 575 ballast.

The 600 watt S106 is fairly close. If you dimmed it with a 1000 watt lamp dimmer and added some cap it would be perfect. Another idea is to use a 200 feet of 16 gauge wire on the input leads to reduce the input voltage. (A 100" extension cord would work). You would then need to up the cap slightly. This would be a almost perfect match.

If someone would try a 600 watt electronic ballast, it should work fine, but may run the lamp at 600 watts or whatever power level an electronic ballast makes at 95V. (they can make it almost whatever they want for the current ramp-up) With some playing around I'm sure you could adjust one to make the right power but to jump into one of those without the schematics might be a expensive learning curve.

So for the coil setups I like the idea of.

1) S51 and a S50 with the S50 having a smaller cap. (400 watt HPS and a 250 watt HPS.) This would be like what I have with the S106 and a S51. (600 watt HPS and a 400 watt HPS for a 1200 watt HMI lamp) I have a high low power setting and always get to set the lamp on low for a little bit to cool down before I shut it off. If this will give me longer life, I don't really know.


So some of my favorite ballast picks might be.


A S106 600 watt HPS with the 75 to 100 foot of 16 gauge extension cord on the input leads. This is large but simple, add a second 75 footer for a low power setting.

Two S50 250 watt ballast. This is simple and fairly cheep. You will have to add some cap but the voltage is close to perfect so the power will not increase as the lamp ages. It would also be easy for a HI/LOW setup with the two ballast wired together and the over drive cap on a switch. I would add about 7.5uf to the stock two ballast for about 525 watt and have an extra 10uf on a switch for about 575 watts. (I have not tested the power levels).

A S51and a S50. Many have a S51 already and could get a 250 watt S50 fairly cheeply. The cap will need to be reduced from a 35uf to around a 15uf to 20 max.

Two S51 could work also with about the same 15uf on the second ballast. (I bet a 10uf might do.)

If using two ballast the input and output MUST be in phase! It is fairly easy to do just hook it up (+ to + and - to -, this goes for the input as well) and plug it in. If the output or input are reversed it will pop the breaker instantly! I'm so lazy sometimes I don't even look at the wires any more,....I just ask my self if I'm feeling lucky today. Your only wrong 50% of the time.

NN if your lamp is still a little green after burn in (at least 10 hours) that means it is under driven. If you are OK with the color and brightness you can leave the power where it's at. The S51 is being driven kind of hard and I don't know how much more you want to get out of it. Is it fairly quite?

One last idea is if using any two ballast setup's, is the smaller one can be on a lamp dimmer and will let you have a "dial a power setting". This might be good for letting the lamp cool down or just to adjust for different room light.

It's about time you showed up AV.

Question with these HMI's, I noticed your leaning with the HPS ballast's. Does this mean the HMI is an equivalent HPS bulb?

A HPS ballast has the lowest voltage and highest current of all the "normal" ballast plus it has a starter to start the lamp. A PS ballast might work but the 400 watt is a 135V ballast so is not a vary good match for a 95V lamp. A standard MH has no starter and does not have a tap to add one.

The HPS lamps also have a tendency to short out so the ballast needs to be able to run into a dead short so is over built compared to a PS or standard MH ballast. I have not read of a standard MH lamps or ballast shorting or if the ballast must be able to withstand a short in the lamp.

Non of the HPS ballast are perfect but what else can we get for cheep? If you want to go to over $200 there are people who make real 575 coil ballast that need to be imported to the USA.

AV,

Do you have a link to these "real" 575 coil ballast? I would like to see them.


Regards,
Traynor

I like the idea of simply throwing a standard 600 watt walmart dimmer on the input of an HPs or pulse start ballast.

The current is controlled mainly by the output cap. the voltage is controlled by the winding ratios of the transformer and the input voltage. We can't touch the winding ratios, but we can control the input voltage by dialing it in by the input dimmer. Instead of supplying the ballast 115 VAC you would end up supplying it ...say, 100 Vac or even 95 VAC. that would reduce your output voltage proportionately without affecting your output current that much.

This is what I was also thinking. While web surfing I came across an article wherein this HMI owner was surprised his commercial HMI power source was actually coil & core.

Well, its not really a little green at all, i think its just the normal green push of the lamp. ?

It is fairly quiet yes, once it warms up it gets even quieter also. (albeit, it is louder than in stock form, but stock form it was near silent)

And the lamp is starting fine and not flickering anymore.

Here are two pics of the lamps light with the LCD off. top is flash setting bottom is daylight

Think I found something worth looking into. It involves the basic construct of magnetic ballast's for 575 HMI's and Osram being mentioned as one of them. And guess what...'The unit consist of a pulse generator...' Pulse start?

Oh, and check out the voltage (120v) and amperage (7.5 amps) involved. The Venture 450w Pulse 'J' or 'D' is looking better and better. Most especially the 'D' model, I can't see how we can go wrong with 120v @ 6.8 amps to START and 4.5 amps to run

Click to view attachment

Good detective work, Sim.

Speaking of your (past) detective work, do you think orienting the hmi's electrodes perpendicular to the LCD would realize the same gains as it did with your 400w experiments? (I noticed Natural Newbie has his single-ended set up that way, but so far I think most 575w-setups have it parallel).

I think any bulb fixed non-paralleled to the lcd would produce more gains than paralleled with. The arc created in the bulb's chamber is not just a 'dot' (point), it's a 'dash' (line) from one electrode to another. It's how we orient the brightest area created by that 'dash' (line) in relation to the widest length of our lcd that makes the difference. The closer we get to a point source than it would make no difference and it will be up to the fresnels to spread as much light as it can to the widest area of the lcd.

The only problem is finding a cheep 600 watt dimer. Most are 500 watt and that is with a non reactive load. Thats where a second ballast on a dimmer make it cheaper.

Sim. The 450 watt ballast may work OK (It will be larger) but it is still a 135V ballast compared to a 110V for a HPS one. If you lowered the input voltage to 100V or so and added some cap then it might be fine but so would a S106.

NN. I have found the HMI lamps to have only a slight green push, my PJ LCD is set to R=100 G=97 B=96

Pleas let us know where you found the RGB software, it's cool

AV, could you provide some info on the voltage rating for these magnetic ballast for reference. I'd like to see them if you don't mind.

Also, is there such a thing as a voltage dimmer or is a wattage dimmer the same?

Walmart sells them for $9.00 each. I was looking for the 400 watt ones but stumbled upon the 600 watt ones at walmart.