What's the highest ANSI on a LL projector so far? Will we ever achieve comparable results to a commercial?

I got 250 Ansi with my 15.4" and over 500 Ansi with my commercial retrofit.

ArizonaVideo got some pretty high readings on his 1200W build... over 400 lumens IIRC.

It would be true to say that a DIY build will never attain the brightness of a commerical unit given the same wattage lamp. This is just the physics of a commercial type design vs. a DIY design. But (BUT) ... that doesn't really mean much as you can easily achieve great results with a DIY vs. a commercial unit. Using a higher wattage lamp (using a small arc) is an easy way to increase brightness on a DIY design, and those can compare brigthness wise with commercial units using 150W UHP lamps (at least in some cases)... case in point, jonjandran and arizonavideo... SupraGuy also got a 400 lumen PJ (standard 15" DIY build IIRC), but his was a special case (I think)... he has measured his LCD at 8% transmissive

gs

I beat 400 ANSI lumens with my build. I'm currently running just shy of 300 ANSI, i actually "de-tuned" my projector as it's a trade-off between lumens and vignetting for me.

My best measurement was at the 460 lumen mark, which I think compares well with commercial.

I want to stay away from 1200w lamps. They just seem like they're itching to burn something down!

Supra, what wattage bulb did you use to attain those results!? I assume you used a condenser too?

No precondenser.

That's using the LL 6500K lamp, pro reflector, and pro lens kit.

I have a measured efficiency of around 8% with my LCD, which makes a huge difference. (It's all in the PLOG linked in my sig.)

What I did was to play with the fresnel positions. By manipulating the lens positions, I was able to capture light over a larger area than the LCD, reduce the lamp to collimator distance some, and generally make the light engine more efficient. The end result was that I could build a brighter projector. My pro lens build was basically a proof of concept, and at 460 lumens, it wasn't really watchable. The center was too bright, and the corners were relatively dim. By "de tuning" down to about 250-300 lumens or so, I was able to get a much more watchable projection. Basically though I wanted to see just how much light I could get.

That's incredible man.

I think I remember reading that the 15.4 wuxga has a pretty high efficiency too? Anyone have a measurement on this yet? I picked up a Toshiba on ebay, and I'm collecting parts for my next build. I WANT BRIGHTNESS!!

If you check the actual tests of commercial projectors (ProjectorCentral.com for example) you will find that the 1000-1200 lumen projectors get those numbers for business presentations i.e. PowerPoint slides and text. When the projectors, even the best of them (LCD, LCOS or DLP) are set to movie (cinema) mode to get good saturation on colors and blacks for dark scenes they only produce aprox 450 lumens. Most LL Pjs average about 250 and a few have gotten as high as 450-500. So the best of LL PJs are right up thier with the sub $3000 projectors. On average our projectors are 50-60% so we have a way to go to compete with the big guys, but are our projectors good enough to enjoy a movie, yes. The human eye can doesn't need a specific level of brightness it needs good contrast and I belive that we are much closer in actual contrast. Same image contrast instead of the brighest point on a bright image, compared to the darkest on a dark image as is often used by the commercial marketing people.

Can we match them in image quality YES, can we match thier marketing numbers NO. I watch movies not numbers!

my toshiba 15.4 wuxga using the sunlight test was 7% transmissive

and using my s400dd precon 330/550 prolens setup, no overdriving i had 100 lumens. (edit: and i think my lamp is going bad)

Very rough contrast (full on full off 2 feet away from triplet) was roughly 250:1

I do wish it was a tad brighter though for those bright scenes. dark scenes look great.

I'm strongly considering the ASK projector mod with the 10.6 sammy (thanks to jonjan and his results!) over building another huge projector with my 15.4 toshiba wuxga. It seems like he got a nice picture. Plus the MST board for the 10.6 is freakin' sweet! 1080p downscaled??

Hmm.... decisions decisions......

If I go the ASK route, look for a toshiba 15.4, a nice beseler lens, and a new ushio bulb in the trading post!

A well built 10.6" easily compares to commercial projectors. If you removed anti-glare, used the 400 watt T15 65k bulb with pro reflector and condensor lens then you could easily achieve what a commercial unit does. Plus side is it will cost less, is more fun to build, and the bulb's life-span.

I'll reserve judgement on Blake's comments until I build and test my 10.6 projector, however...

Commercial projecotrs, particularly DLP projectors have a HUGE advantage. Can we really catch up to that? Honestly, I don't think that we can.

The question then becomes do we NEED to catch up to that?

For some applications, brightness is paramount. You can't put a projector in a boardroom, for example, then have to have it so dark that nobody can see each other's faces or their own notepads. It just won't work.

For others, they will want a projector in a living room, or somewhere where ambient light cannot be controlled easily. In this situation brighter could be a good thing, but may not be strictly speaking necessary.

For movies in a light-controlled room, DIY can be more than bright enough.

Otherwise, it will take a bit of time. Small LCDs with appropriate fresenels can go a long way towards bridging the gap. Larger LCDs can sometimes do it as well, with some work, and some luck.

The more I hear about how bright DIY's are compared to commercials and the more I think about it the more I'm convinced it doesn't matter at all. When I watch a movie I want to be immersed. If I've got a half dozen 150W bulbs on in the room and can see all the other objects in the room it greatly detracts from my viewing experience. I wouldn't want a projector so bright it could be viewed in such conditions. Sure, in some circumstances it would come in handy but I'd still use it almost exclusively in a very dark room. So, I don't think we should really want or need to approach a very bright commercial unit.

SupraGuy and Durachko, those are great comments. It seems everybody is focussed on getting the brightest image possible, but it doesn't need to be. I agree, if what we want to do is watch a movie, having a superbright projector isn't the most important part, but possibly it could be the focus, resolution, etc.

Well, sometimes a brighter image IS better. It certainly helps if what we want is a larger image too.

I'm just saying that it's something that may be getting more attention in terms of metrics than it really deserves.

Several people are using DIY projectors for images greater than 120" diagonal. To me, that's good enough.

So much though depends on build quality though

My opinion is that a projector should be bright enough so that it will work well in a dark room, without straining your eyes. With mine, the output is just a little low, so it is quite viewable, even with a light on in the hallway outside the room, but during a movie, you might be slightly straining to see everything. Granted, my screen is pretty big at the moment(~120" diagonal), but this is only because I need to have the projector out of the way during use, and am using the standard lens set.

There is an approximate standard brightness for movie theater screens of 14-18 footlamberts (although I don't think many of our projectors could achieve this level of brightness for a very big screen, I'm just putting it out there).

I was actually commenting in reference to LCD commercial projectors. I'm not that big a fan of DLP though. And I will say that I agree with you and Durachko, we really don't need them to be THAT bright. Board rooms aside, people usually buy or make projectors to watch movies or play games in a light controlled room. There really is no need to have a 1000+ lumen projector for the average pj user.

To me... DLP has it's place, and as the technology improves, I can see them getting better and better. They're more efficient, and so that's where a lot of the research is going to go.

In the meantime, as long as DIY can provide advanages over commercial offerings, there will be a large market for that. I will more than willingly sacrifice brightness (Which, by the way, I have more than I need) for the lamp life in terms of $/hour over a commercial projector offering the same in terms of image. Speaking of image... I use my projector as a PC monitor, so I do use the full 1280X1024 of the 17" panel. Most commercial projectors won't offer that resolution, since they're not intended as data projectors.

Those that are will most likely be 1024X768, so you have to give up the native 720p capability. If you have 720P it will most likely BE 720P ie: 1280X720. Great for (widescreen) movies, but then you have to give up so much if you want to use it as a PC monitor.

Alternately, I could go really widescreen, and go with a 1080p projector, and get 1920X1080, but if I really wanted to go that way, it's still SO much cheaper to build a WUXGA DIY that the comparison is pointless. The DIY is so much cheaper to build than a decent 1080p projector is to buy that there can be no meaningful comparison. Add in the cheaper lamp life, and to me, who's going to care about a few extra lumens from the commercial? Is it really worth the literally thousands of dollars? Not to me.

So there are advantages to DIY. Real ones.

In terms of lumens... Maybe not. But never say never. We have made real, measurable and definable gains in the last year. I think the average lumen count on a DIY projector has increased signifigantly due to ideas and pioneering that has been done right here at LumenLab. We even have some good ideas on what we need to get more lumens, it's more than possible that someone will develop something that lets us make the next leap in lumen counts.

I think some DIYer will come up with a eliptical reflector that will work with more than likely a G12 setup. It will probaly be flashlight focusable or rail for lcd size and to eliminate the dark spot and will give us a lumens jump. DIYers here at LL have so far helped in the awareness of so much availible technology for all of us. So much has changed reading stuff from the early 2000's compared to now is like looking at stuff from the back rooms of a museum that has cobwebs and dust on it and going "wow". Even Box tech has had its improvements where would we be without the haas-box or SJ's not a box box, It ups the curve of all craftsmenship. LCD research ,,,,, the same,,anti-glare removal, lcd listings, transmissiveness. The list goes on an on. Light research, ballast awareness, overclocking, precons, I would not be surprised if we evaintually have a list of precons for each lcd and fresnels setup. We may not reach the marketing skills of comercial PJs but we are not that far behind, Yes we are larger and yes we have not the resources of massive companies. But just looking at the Ask Impression technology of only 10 years ago is enough to show me that we are not that far behind. We may never catchup but we are not that far behind. I use my infocus LP350 as a comparison for my tweaking of my 14.1 DIY PJ It is not that far behind in picture quality or focusing in the lumens area if does lag I would say about 40% less lumens, I have no lux tool but by eye I notice it. Even so I can still use it with lights on and the curtains open with the sun out and it is still satisfactory even as a computer screen.

Wait a minute... for a MH 400W lamp the datachart sais 35000 Lumens, if effieciency of a TFT is 10% you get 3500 Lumens. I think I read this also at tomshardware...

You say if I put in 2000W lamp I will have something of a brightness of commertial projector with say 2100Lumens? I saw it a month ago in a store for 650EUR a 2100L one and a Epson with 1200Lumens for 340EUR. I put more money in a projector so far, please tell me DIY ones potentially better!!!

Has someone made pictures side to side LL and commertial Projector?

My display alone is without light underneeth compleetly opaq... is ti yours also?

Check here for just one example. There was/is a thread somewhere else that got a bit inflammatory and I'd like you to see that one too but can't seem to dig it up just now. Member jonjandran has posted a good deal of comparison stuff.

No the light has to go through a heat shield, two fresnels, the Lcd , and a triplet with three pieces of glass.

Each fresnel and heat shield blocks about 12% of the light. The triplet blocks about 24% of the light. And the Lcd blocks about 95% of the light.

So 35,000 through the heat sheid = 30,800 through the first fresnel = 27,104 through the second fresnel = 23.851 through the Lcd = 1,192 through the triplet = 905 lumens.

905 lumens you say !!! That should rival the commercial projectors.

Buttttttt............... But we aren't using 100% of the 35,000 lumens from our lamps to start with. We are only using the light coming forward , not the light going backwards and to the sides. If we use a reflector we can use some of the light heading backwards but we still lose the light radiating out in the other directions.

So even if we can use 50% of that light we get knocked down to 450 lumens. Which Supraguy and I have shown is possible but with a big hit in screen vignetting. Once you get the optics setup for good vignetting we are back down to a max of 250-300 lumens.

At the moment there is just no way around this.

Durachko, I wouldn't consider the evo a 'commercial' projector. It is closer to a DIY than a commercial in design. It is also fairly equal to a good DIY in terms of brightness, from what I've heard.

Here's a comparison of my 10.6" retrofit versus my 1080p commercial.

My retrofit is at about 450 lumens and the commercial is a 1000 lumens rated projector.

Commercial on the left and DIY on the right.

And here is a comparison I did a while back .

My Diy 1080p at about 250 lumens top pic.
My 1080p commercial 1000 lumen bottom pic.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and I understand why you have expressed it; however, it was not my intention to make some attempt at an unfair diversion from what I understand to be member nekodrugi99's inquiry. In fact, initially I tried to dig up the pics jonjandran just posted above. I was unsuccessful and rather than bag my post I provided the eVo/DIY comparison since IMHO it IS cogent to this discussion. And I did mention member jonjandran to boot. I've also seen at least two other way more upscale commercial units than the eVo and haven't been all that impressed by them when compared to my lowly DIY. I took some lux readings as well and believe I posted some info and really shouldn't be so lazy as to not go and try to track them down but . . .

No offense meant, I was just saying...

And I am impressed with the comparison pics, the truth is our DIY's are not that far off from the commercial projectors. If they made them too bright, the blacks would turn to gray. I think the only real advantage to having a 'true' 1000 or so lumen projector is if you wanted to project a huge image, or project in daylight.

Exactly. And I have seen a quality true 2000 lumen projector in the daytime and it still doesn't look good. Everything was still washed out.

If you need daytime viewing go with a DLP rear projection 60" TV.

If you want a theater room , black it out. Make it a bat cave and then 250-500 lumens will look awesome.

I assure you no offense was taken. This debate will never end - over DIY/commercial brightness comparisons that is. Along with some other debates around here.

2 jonjandran
Your pictures does not have EXIF data sa I can not see in which conditions the images were taken. Were the camera settings the same in both cases or was the DIY version much darker.

The debate of brightness between diy vs commercial dlp/lcd is no different than the debate between crt pjs vs commercial dlp/lcd. In many respects a diy is comparable to the crt with the exeption of absolute black levels. So the arguement regarding brightness is just a matter of type of usage. Yeah, if you're in a lit or brighter room without good lighting control, then yes a light cannon like a dlp or lcd is merited. But in all other conditions, such as a darkened room or even outside at night, then a diy will just be as good as a commercial.

If seen both as I've a-b demoed a 15" vertical with a MH bulb vs my Sharp A10x and although my pj did have more (not surprisngly) pop to it, if you never saw a commercial in your room compared to your diy you would never have noticed the difference.

Victor

Same room conditions , same camera settings.

For the side by side pic , the camera was in manual mode with the same iso settings.

For the Star Wars pics, the camera was in Auto mode.

But the pictures represent the exact brightness that I was seeing. I make sure that the pics don't look brighter/better/different that what i am seeing.

Looks pretty much the same to me, (neglecting the saturation and contrast difference). But who can explain me how can a 450 Lumen Projector have the same brightness as the 1000 one.

I know that once calibrated, most of the people I talked to say they end up with about
500-600 on screen from a 1000 lumen commercial. Don't know why... just happens,
apparently.

Wait a second, you DID take lux readings? I remember searching one day and no prevail.

Jonjandran, I believe, owns the Mitsu HC5000. So here is an exerpt from projectorreviews.com regarding the HC5000

"The HC5000BL is definitely not a light canon (particularly bright). However, neither are any of the other announced 1080p projectors anywhere near the price range, so, for those wanting a really bright 1080p home theater projector, looks like you'll have to wait for the 2nd generation, a year away.

First, in " best" mode, with the HC5000BL projector in full (Standard) power, Cinema (gamma), and Color Temp set based on my calibration (see calibration section), the HC5000BL measured a very reasonable 480 lumens. Dropping to low power, brightness decreased by approximately 23% to 371 lumens. Note, dropping the power to low had a significant effect on the color balance (temp), which I will go into later."

So from this review, paired to his lux calculations on the ASK, is the why the two are comparable in brightness.

Victor

I didn't know this would turn into a discussion about commercial lumens.

But yes even a 2000 watt commercial projector when setup for a dark room will only be outputting 400-600 lumens.

2000 lumens in a drak room would appear as a white blur and burn your retinas .

I estimate my HC5000 at about 600 lumens the way I have it calibrated now.

Speaking of this scenario...

The last time I watched a movie in a movie theater(for free ), I remember the switches from dark scenes to bright scenes (night->day) would strain my eyes. The dark was OK, but the switch to light was pretty much blinding!

Anyways, the projector is supposed to be 5000 lumens, and the screen is old, so the gain is only .5

PS the screen was 20' x 11.25'.
This would be equivalent to, say, a 2500 lumen projector with a BO cloth screen, right?

Then if the screen size was reduced to something more sensible for a HT, say 10' x 5.625' (1/4 size) , to get the same lux, you would only need 625 lumens output.

I recall taking lux readings for the eVo and on Infocus my buddy has. I also believe I took readings for a projector at work. And of course for my DIY. The problem is I used a different meter for the one at work IIRC. It's a bit messy and maybe not all that informative. The readings were always rushed (mostly) and there were various 2 years olds running around the room and peeking into the lenses , wives yelling, beer being consumed, etc. I could go back and redo some stuff someday. Perhaps this winter I can finally settle down and do some real comparison shtuff?

FWIW, I found 460 luimens to be uncomfortably bright in my basement. A switch from a very dark scene to a very bright scene (Example, the scene in Star Wars where R2D2 and C3P0 eject in the escape pod. The scene switches from space to the (very bright) surface ot Tatooine. I thought it was going to sear my retinae. This was one of the prime reasons that I de-tuned my projector to output LESS lumens, for although I thought that I could get used to the high brightness, I felt that I'd rather not.

To date, I think I'm one of a very few DIY projector builders that has modified his projector for less lumens though I had a relatively small screen though, so the lux was actually quite high. Currently the screen is much larger, and I've re-tuned it for a few more lumens.

"Once you get the optics setup for good vignetting we are back down to a max of 250-300 lumens."

How large of a projection retains 250-300 lumens with a LL 400w pro setup?

The size of the screen is directly related to ASNI lumens. 250 lumens projected 50" is half the power of 250 lumens projected 100". I'm curious because I recently installed a 400w T15 in my 10.6" setup and my 90" screen is 100 lumens using my cheapo lux meter and the ASNI math. While this is watchable I find I have to over expose the white levels by boosting contrast to make most movies more enjoyable in a dark room.

I would love to hit 200 lumens @ 90" if I could with good vignetting. I'm using a 220 collimator, pre con and pro reflector. After much adjusting, I can't seem to break 100 lumens @ 90". Isn't it important to state your projection screen size when stating lumens?

I was also blinded by a transition scene that was from Star Wars. It was the Courtyard shot on the Princess's Home planet. Every person in the room put up their hands to ward it off. That in combination with seeking more even lighting led me to pull the lamp back a few mm...

Its projector season at our house again ( we have two large bays of windows in the LR that face west...)
overall we have been very happy with it. Sinc eboth my wife and I are movie types we dig the low lighting and the gigantic screen looming above us...

Its like the drive in...only with better sound, you can put your feet up , and a pause button!

Do I need commercial level brightness? No.
I will trade the resolution for the brightness anyday.

You know, we have some commercials here at work. I'm gonna sneak in my lux meter and take some quick measurements for kicks.


I can't see why not Sin. Some of us are hitting way above a 100. And yes the screen area is important for the actual ANSI calc.

This could give the wrong impression.

ANSI lumens are pretty much fixed for a given projector. If you have 300 ANSI lumens, then you'll have 300 ANSI lumens whether you have a 60" screen or a 200" screen.

Lumens are the average lux, or brightness, multiplied by the surface area of your screen in square meters. Therefore lux can be determined if you know lumens. If I have 250 lumens, and a 2.5 square meter screen, then I will have an average lux of 100. This is considered to be appropriate for a movie theater, though most theaters that I've been to are under the mark. (I've snuck my lux meter into a couple of them. Most good theaters are in the mid 80s, with a couple that were actually over 100. The "cheap seats" encore theaters tend to be a bit underpowered, with many as low as the mid 50s)

My projector is currently about 300 lumens, or at least it was when I re-tuned it for a 120" screen. Now for a 4:3 aspect ratio (It's actually 5:4 for my 17" LCD, but this is easier math, and close enough.) that's 72" tall and 96" wide, or 183cm tall by 244cm wide. This is a total screen area of 44,408 square cm, which is 4.44 square meters. This gives me an average lux of about 67. This is not quite as bright as a good theater screen, but more than bright enough to be enjoyable.

So you are saying that 300 ANSI lumen projector would have an average lux of 120 on a 2.5 square meter screen or an average of 200 lux on a 1.5 square meter screen. I guess my point was that a 200 lumen projector is going to look a lot dimmer when you go from say a 70" screen to a 120" screen.

My screen is 2.2 square meters (114cm tall x 193cm wide) and my average lux is 40, then my ASNI lumens are only 88? Doesn't this sound low for a 400w T15 proreflector/220mm/330mm/355besler triplet? I've tried moving everything and can't get it any brighter. I'm wonder if the T15's 53mm arch length is the problem (I measured the distance between the leads). My arch image barely fits in the triplet so I'm not wasting much if any spillage light but the lumens per mm on a 53mm arch isn't very good. The ushio bulb has a much shorter arch correct? It's watchable I just wonder because you guys talk about having 200-300 lumen setups. Did I do the math right? Because 88 lumens sounds like crap compared to yours.

Any ideas?

Just so I understand, having a 2.2 square meter screen, I would need an average lux of 90 to achieve a 200 lumen projector?

Your numbers are similar to a lot of people using the 400 watt and standard lens set. Most get around 100 lumens give or take. If I'm not mistaken, those getting better numbers tend to go with the Pro lens set. That captures much more light. It's also a matter of luck. If you happen to get a higher transmissive panel then your numbers can go up dramatically.

You really don't need a lot of lumens to have a watchable projector. Mt projector is only 4.4 (yes, it isn't evin 5) lumens and i have it at 123" and it is fully watchable.

The real issue becomes the fact that dark scenes look like crap. Mine is getting about 30-40 lumens (I really haven't done a solid test on it yet), and it looks ok for anything cartoony or bright. But dark scenes in movies etc. just vanish.

New screen coming, some focusing should give me another 5-10 lumens no problem, but even so thats barely any output.

Then again, I'm only using 43w of light so its actually VERY efficient

I wonder about the transmissibility of LCD's. Does anybody happen to have lux/lumen measurements with and without their LCD in their projector? I go from having almost 1800 ANSI Lumen's without the LCD in and 71 with the LCD in.