SETUP AS OF 2 March 2008
17" AG Neova F-417 LCD Samsung 732N
22" Triplet Chineese ProLens
630/220 Fresnels
Overdriven Osram HQI-T 400W/D
84mm reflector
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After lurking around in the forums I thought it was time to start my PJ. Actually I have already put together the PJ, I cant really say it is finished just because it throws some kind of image on the wall, I think it is far from finished, it needs alot of adjustments and fine tuning as my first results are kind of sad ...

I guess my problem was (still is) that I was/am too impatient to finish and see "HD quality image" on my yellow wall !! Also low quality/lack of tools and having to work in the apartment on the dining table didnt help.

My Setup:
17" AG Neova F-417 LCD (I hadnt heard of this brand before - the image quality is not soo good)
22" Triplet out of a Beseler projector
630 / 330 fresnels
64mm reflector (I see this refloctor in European DYI sites alot - they just call it 64mm reflector)
Osram Powerball 150W/942 Bulb (The single ended - short one)
Custom ballast/ignitor (here they sell them as a kit in a black box - you'll see more of it later)

Needed
A larger mirror (more below) On its way
A precondensor lens On its way

Contruction
I followed the common threaded design for my PJ. I dont know what I'll do for the box, since I use a thick blanket to block out the light for now. I guess I'll have the box made when the blanket catches on fire. The perspective in the picture below is somewhat misleading, the green plate on top is actually parallel to the ground, the board below is the tilted one
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I tried to make the contruction as simple as possible for the lack of tools. Dont judge me when you see the kind of cuts I made with the triplet and the base board - well the lenses are not in great shape either ...

I really thought I had everything planned but when I started to work with the material I got / could obtain apart from the basic design concept, everything else changed and mutated into something quite different ...

Just wonderin' if you want to consider a brighter lamp? I have the OSRAM 400W double ended (was a RADIUM until I broke it :angry: ) It isn't super-bright by the time it's been through the optiics. I guess it needs more cooling though

Light Engine
I was going for an easy to build but adjustable light engine. It didnt turn out too bad, but some of the adjustments needs parts to be taken apart - which kind of defeats the purpose but I can live with it.

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The black box you see behind the lamp is the ballast box. Here when you buy the bulb they ask if you want the "kit" with it. It is a magnetic ballast. Warms up quite a bit and makes a buzzing sound .. not that you hear it when the sound is on but still makes me uneasy.

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The light engine is quite simple ... I opened a slot on a board which allows me to move in any direction 20mms. I thought that was quite enough. It is held hold with a machine bolt which doesnt have threads close to the end which makes it easy to move the board around and I dont need to worry about the threads eating away in the board and making the slot wider.

One major problem here is the reflector. The focal length doenst hit the arc, so I dont think I am getting the full capacity of the reflector. I am looking around for a proper one ...

One major problem here is the reflector. The focal length doenst hit the arc, so I dont think I am getting the full capacity of the reflector. I am looking around for a proper one ...
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I don't understand how the fl of the reflector could be too short? If any lamp is made to be infront of the reflector the shell and lamp center could not be much smaller than the 150 lamp you have. where did the reflector come from and what is the fl of the reflector?

If you use a 150 watt lamp you really have to have a condenser lens or it just won't be vary bright

*** Precondensor ***


You replied to one of my posts about the dimm light I got recently ... you said the same thing than too - that I need a precondensor. So went and ordered myself a condenser lens. (Got the last one - they are out of stock now)

Specs in case the link doesnt work: (From a German Site)
Plan-Konvex Kondensorlinse D=114mm

- Durchmesser: 114mm
- Stärke: 23mm [Thickness]
- Randdicke: 2,5mm [Edge thickness]
- Brennweite: 165mm [Focal length]

I checked it in Dazzles pre-condensor calculator and the "Pre-Con Refraction Angle" comes out to be 119 degrees - arc to plano 29mm ... which I think is quite reasonable. The only thing is it doesnt say what the material is .. I think they would have stated if it was pyrex or such ... It'll be 4mm away from the lamp shell, it does get quite hot that close to the lamp but hopefully not hot enough to crack the lens ...

*** Reflector ***
The thing with the reflector is really stupid. Here are the specs for it:
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E.F.L. : 16.3mm
Diamete : 64
C.T. : 4.8
E.T. : 6.27
R1 : 32.6
R2 : 37.2

The thickness is 20 mm ... which puts the focal point on the outer ring plane !!!! So the shell needs to be in the reflector... I dont get this. What is this reflector good for ???? To be honest I didnt check the specs before I ordered because I was in such a hurry to get my parts ... well there is 10$ down the drain ... I'll be oredering the pro reflector from LL ...

It sounds like the same reflector I have here. If it is then it should work just fine for the HCI. I tried to model it in cad but their dimensions are wrong. CT should be equal to R2-R1 So I’ll just guess that CT is 4.6mm not 4.8mm. If all the rest of the dimensions are correct then it will work with any lamp up to 25mm diameter. So the HCI positioned against the rim should be perfect.

DJ

I dont know why I got stuck at focal length ... its the center of the radius thats important not the F.L. ... well I am happy the reflector is settled ..

*** Frames ***

The only thing that bugged me with the threaded design was that you would have to unscrew alot of bolts to take out the element you want. I assumed I would probably be taking the frames out alot for fine adjustment but it comes out thats not really the case. I took out the LCD onces and the 630 frame once so far ... But I still like the idea of being able to take out what I need with out changing too much ...

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This way I loosen the bolts, move the bolts on one side away from the frame, when far enough I tilt the frame until the slot is off the threaded rod and slide the whole frame out .. pretty easy.

As you can see I only have two frames. I attached the 330 fresnel on the back of the LCD frame. The problem with this is that you are stuck with the distance. In my case I had about 10mm between the fresnel and the LCD, after I fired up the PJ for the first time the image (blank screen) (see next post) was horrible. Orange and dull with lots of rings... I figured the rings were from the fresnel but didnt understand what was the deal with yellow/orange image.

This is one of the first ever projections from the PJ ... not great is it ... I was pretty bummed out. The circle is a washer placed on the LCD and 630 fresnel. I was checking the alignment...
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Here you can see the washers better. one is on the LCD on the 330 fresnel center, the other on the 630 fresnel center. The LCD is displaying the plus
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Well when the fresnels are too close not only do you see the rings but in my case they also cast an orangish shadow too .. I took out the frame and increased the distance to about 20mm .. now I have no rings and the image is not half as off color as it was ... when I am not too lazy I am going to try to put it back and other 10 and increas it to 30mm - this seems to be what most have theirs set at

The dark corners are from the mirror which is too small ... when I designed the PJ the mirror seemed ok ... now I am waiting on a new mirror. Hopefully I'll have it on thusrday ...

These are with the same setup projecting further away (3.5m) with keystone
Not as bad in reality
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Since the above pics I have taken out the triplet and cleaned it with a window cleaner (those blue smelly spray things)... wiped the mirror clean, took the dust off from the frames... and it did make a big difference ... especially the triplet cleaning

well I got some new goodies - a precondensor and a bigger mirror. The smaller mirror is the one I had before. New one is much bigger. The lens is sitting on some foam I found lying around.
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The precondensor did make a big diffrence in the brightness. I dodnt have the before pic (I'll take on tonite and post it) .. but you definitely notice the difference. It is a bit blurry but it tells the story ... Below are the same image with two different settings (second one is more life like)
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here is a pic that I thought is worth posting ... The colors are pretty much as seen in the picture. I have no complaints about color rendering but in movies dark scenes suck, but this is still on a yellow wall (I adjusted the RGB values from the LCD to match the wall)
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Overall in movies etc it is quite watchable but in plane white backgrounds you see the defects - first of all it is not white..
-CONT Below-

-CONTed FROM ABOVE

Since I put in the new mirror I have a focusing problem. I held the old mirror in front of the new one so that each covers half of the screen, and I can definitely see the difference ...

The new mirror just wont focus ... I am pretty sure it is to the do with the mounting .. when I take it out and look at the reflections of the surroundings I see no defects / problems - its crystal clear - I think the surface is fine.

Its probably that when I mount it gets warped somehow... I am trying to find what it is the actual root of the problem. You can what I mean in the second picture below. The first one is more focused but I couldnt hold the camera steady so it looks blurry ...
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In the second one you can see a faint "halo" on top of the text ..

actually here is a good comparison - the one on top is a pic I posted earlier ...
BEFORE PRECON (with small mirror)
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AFTER PRECON (with bigger mirror)
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lasted less than 24 hours ...
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I guess 4mm was too close to the lamp, also not having any ventilation didn't help ....

Oh no!!

That has got to be frustrating ... to get such great improvements, then CRACK!.

But, at least now you know what to do, eh?

I HATE seeing that kind of stuff. Keep your head up, everyone runs into some sort of snag!

Well I haven't updated the plog for a while now since the only thing I did after the precon broke was to get a new 220 fresnel. I took the 330 one out and put in the 220 fresnel.

It helps with the brightness a bit. At least you notice the change - for the better. But the light disto is really not as good as the 330 - you sure notice that too ... it is very prone to hotspotting. The light - LCD distance is more sensitive.

right now I am waiting on the 6x9 precon from altman, hopefully I'll receive it next monday . According to dazzles precon calc the light coll angle is 150degrees, my "dead" precon was at 119 or so ... so hopefully I'll get an even brighter projection ...

I also finally decided to have the box built .. I am sick of the blanket ... (yes I am still using the blanket) ... well the blanket is not so much of a problem, it is the ventilation . YES I still don't have ventilation ! after long hours of watching the PJ really gets hot. the heat from the LCD is close to hurting my hand - the effects show in the picture quality too... so in preparation for the ventilation I got a 120mm revoltec case fan, I have some 80mm case fans lying around too.

I also ordered SHC polarizers from polarization.com to replace the damaged filter on the LCD... well I told the story on an other thread but here it goes - the LCD I got, got stolen from a store. The thieves came through the window, snatched couple of stuff including my LCD and ran off.. they got caught on an other job and the police made them talk .. so the cops returned all the stolen items .. apparently when the guys snatched the LCD they hit it on the broken window, there used to be big scratches and little holes on the display. so the guy sold it for cheap ...

I got rid of the scratches with the AG removal but now I have a hole that went all the way through ... and the polarizer is scratched up from bad treatment by my self .. and since elken is doing polarizer experiments I thought I'd have a go at it too ... hopefully I wont break the LCD trying to get the polarizer off - I need to search and read about it, see how others are doing it

hehe, my last post was more than a year ago !!!
wow this is a slow moving project.

as per a reply I got from druckho over a question about the precon he was using, I decided to keep the plog updated since I wasnt getting any answers to my questions in other therads. I guess the questions were out of context to the readers. So I'll try to keep the plog in snyc with the problems I am having... I really am not at a position to say that I am satisfied with the PJ..

So here is an update of where I stand with the PJ...

I have actually gotten around to have a case built. went much better than I thought. Initially I thought of having the parts cut and assembling myself, but I found a carpenter with some free time and had him put the box together - it was a wise decision.

Here are some pictures of the concept. I used catia to draw the 3d models.

I really didnt like the previous threaded rod design. So with this case I thought I would have the shelves fixed. Which has advanteges and disadvanteges. More about that later.

my main criteria for this design was to have the ability to adjust where I project.
In my old apartment I had 2 walls I could project onto, and in the new apartment again I have two walls. One is completey open, so I can usee the full wall. The other has a couch infront. So for the wall with the couch I needed to be able to change the triplet angle and the mirror angle.

So I have a peg where the triplet holder sits on and concentric to the same peg is the mirror holder.

here is a picture of the top of the box with the triplet holder removed. you can see the peg in this picture. there is a nail camng out of it holding the mirror.

The hole center for the mirror holder is on the surface of the mirror. so what ever angle I set the mirror to, the surface is always on the center light path.

and here is picture with the triplet holder and the mirror. You dont see much, but if you look hard you'll see where the triplet is sitting.

I also changed my lamp. I put in a 400W osram lamp.
I got the lamp used. ballast and lamp cost me 30$. I thought it was so cheap I had to buy it. I really didnt intent to change the 150W powerball ... but after I put it in the box I saw an increase in the brightness. So I am keeping it in there.

I was pretty bummed out when I first fired it since the image was green ... but i comes out it was to do with the spacings. Once adjusted it was ok.

I had two sheets of regular 3mm glass cut for under the fresnels. In my old setup the fresnels were sagging too much. With both the glasses in the image looked rather dim. I took one out I think it looks better. I am going to take out the bottom one out once I sort my cooling out.

I wasnt thinking of putting up any screenies at this point, but I enjoy looking at others images, so here goes some of mine when the new lamp was first installed.

At this point the projector was with 550/330 lens, no reflector/precon.
The first image is the one I was talking about in the previous post. Greeeeennnnn ... you can imagine what a shocker it was. what is worse is when I googled one site said this lamp came in three flavors, green, blue and magenta ...
I dont think that is case, since with the current setup I am faarrrr away from the greeen ... anyway the nemo pictures were with some adjustments, so already they were looking better...

the two pictures are one with me and my son, and the other my daughter alone .. to give you an idea of the image size (they are three by the way - twins)

Put all your worries to rest my dear.Your bulb is new or the voltage supplied is a bit lower.Wait for atleast 15-20 Hrs.I mean keep the lamp on for these many number of ours and you will get a very beautiful white light.At of now you may be finding the lamp cylinder a little greenish but after burning for a couple of ours that will turn to your favor.You can align it vertically to see the changes fast.

yar, the bulb looks pretty good for now actually. I still have some issues with the color but not the green tint ... some other stuff that I'll be dealing with later...

well today I finally made some adjusters for the lamp shelf. In my current box the shelves and the frames sit on 3x12mm wood screws. Every time I need to change the spacing between any element I need to unscrew the 4 screws, screw them back in and put the shelf back on.

with the LCD and top fresnel this wasnt a worry, but with the lamp shelf I was getting really tired. I'll get a close up of the side of the box from the inside. the walls look like swiss cheese. holes every where.

so to deal with this I made 4 little adjustable supports for the lamp shelf. basically it is an L shape aluminum profile with a bolt through it. I dont what the thing the bolt screws on to is called in english.

this is what they look like ....
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sorry for the bad image quality, I had to use my VGA cellphone camera.

and here they are installed on one side. there 2 more on the other side.

Just recently about a week ago I changed the fresnels from 550/330 to 630/220.
I was trying to get a 6x9 altman to work with the 330 fresnel. But it just didnt deliver.

I thought I'd change to 220 and see what the difference is with what I thought was best precon placement for the 330 lens and wow .. what a difference.

I am sure this is because the 6x9 altman is not the best choise of precons but that is what thought was the right one and bought. comparing the 330 and 220;
there is nothing good with the 330 compared to 220. with 220 the light spread is much better, and brightness is higher.

So I was happy with the 220 fresnel. until something caught my eye in ronins plog. he had a similar setup as me, 17" screen, 220/600 fresnels with a pro triplet. he got a 220mm fl precon and had it sit on the lamp and he was getting pretty good results.

I thought I'd try the same with the new setup (handt tried the 220 with precon in the new box).
I placed the precon about 10mm from the lamp shell. It doesnt cover the whole screen I get brown corners, the light spread is not too much better, but it isnt too bad either.

So overall just putting the precon close to the lamp without changing the fresnel-lamp distance actually increase the birghtness .. but the problem is the corner focus is messed up.

even with out the precon I could never get full focus over the entire screen, but it was very obvious. You really needed to go close to the screen to the the difference between the center and the edges.

But now with the precon the edges are just way out of focus. I thought maybe moving the lamp closer to the fresnel might help but moving closer about 2-3 cms didnt do anything.

so my question is how come it works for ronin but not me ? (I sound like a preschooler )

I have always been suspicious about the 22" beseler triplet. But there are times when the focus is good so I kind of have to rule it out .... I found a source from china for a supposedly pro triplet for total 100$ shipping included, but cant be sure if it is the "real" deal.. living in turkey the pro triplet is gonna cost me like $300-350 if I get is from LL ...

well well well .. what do you know....

a simple innocent bang of the LCD broke the ffc's... I dont have image on one half of the screen.
what a set back. and I was so motivated to finish the project.

I started looking for a new panel immediately ... I found some panels but cant be sure which one to go for.

here is the one I am considering just because it is the cheapest with the hight contrast 800:1

There are some cheaper for 700:1 and 600:1. The panel I had before was 550:1

This is the panel: FUJITSU SIEMENS Scenicview A17-3
5ms, 0.264 mm, 1280 x 1024 pixel, 800:1

of course I have no idea about the ffc issue. with my luck it'll be wrapped in ffcs...
what do you guys think ? this panel or something cheaper with less contrast...

I searched the forums but couldnt find a direct answer whether a higher contrat ratio LCD gives a better image in the PJ ? I have read people mention about their LCD panels that it is a high contrast lcd but thats it... and also in the 15.4" panel thread some one mentioned eventhough the samsung has higher contrast (600:1 ?) than the sharp (400:1), the sharp gives out better blacks ???

so is the LCD contrast ratio not an indication of whether it is better or not ? any input would be helpfull, I waiting for an answer so I can order an LCD. I have a couple lined up same specs different contrast ratios....

I couldnt wait so I went out and got my self a new LCD: Samsung 732N
I came to work (sucks to work on the weekends) and quickly disassembled it. no ffc issue ... good start
this one is 700:1 contrast panel. I found this benchmark website while looking for reviews on the 732n. scroll down and checkout the graphs .... pretty cool

according to them the measured contrast for this panel is 180:1 !! ... far from the advertised .....

by the way, I took the all the glass sheets I put under the fresnels to prevent from sagging out. I had already taken the top one out, and last night I took the bottom one (under the 220 fresnel) out. (thats when I broke the broke).

I must sayit does seem to make a difference. the color is the same (I thought it was adding a slight greenish tint) but it didnt make a difference but the image does look brighter.

actually when you hold the glass sheet in the air you can see it is blocking so light out. and having 2 on top of each other really cuts the light passing through. the glass was 3mm thick each.

so anyone thinking of putting in glass to support the fresnels, dont do it, try to change your frames to better support the fresnels.

I put in the new panel and I am very happy with it. the colors look really good.
The blacks are 10 times better than the old panel. after all maybe it was a good thing the old one broke.

I would have liked to add some photos but I dont have the camera anymore, my wife took it. she is gone to her parents for 3 weeks... with the kids !!! thats why I am so active on the forums some much, since I can actually get things done in hours not days .....

since I put in the 220 fresnel I started getting some heat problem. The center of the panel would turn dark brown and unwatchable. That would take a while with the old panel but with the new it was around 20mins of running that I would start getting the brown spot.

I had one fan (220V AC, loud but high flow rate) blow in cold air, and a 120mm case fan blowing out. aperantly that didnt help the panel. actually the interesting thing is the 220fresnel was measuring 34 degrees centigrade !!! .. thats not even hot. but you couldnt touch the panel, it was that hot. maybe the 220 is focusing light instead of colliminating.

so I cut slots open on the LCD and the fresnel frames, and turned both fans to blow hot air out. I have a big hole on top of the box for the triplet and with this setting (both fans blowing out) I can feel the air sucked into the box from the top triplet hole. so now I have air passing under the LCD. It seems to have solved the problem. Just now I stopped watching almost 2 hours of movies and no brown spotting. I was too lazy to take temperature readings, but I'll do that soon to make sure the LCD is at reasonable temps.

But towards the end I noticed something: and it was that I had nonuniform light in the center. I had two bright spots.

Here is a photoshop work of art describing the problem.
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i noticed I made the lighter shade too dark, you might be seeing a full black image, but there are lighter areas in there

I am guessing the two center lighter streaks are the from the lamp. I have the osram hqi-t 400w/d and when it lights up you can see two bright spots in the lamp where the arcs are forming and the edges of the arc look brighter.

but I cant tell what the bottom is about. maybe there is a problem with the alignment ... I know the lamp is off center less then 5mm on the horizontal (screen sense) but I was sure it was dead center vertically....

I dont know if the new cooling is adding to the affect. the colder air first touches the LCD where the bottom white streaks are ... can it be that the temperature difference creates the blacks to get washed out ????

no comment
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some screenies from my setup with the new optolife lens ...

my man yoda
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light and dark with a flash
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custom settings
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magicbrite
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lukkkeee ... I am your fatherrrr....
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magicbrite
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custom settings
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the image width is just over 3 meters with at a throw of 4.6 meters in all the above pictures...
the panel has some nice color and temperature settings and some built in settings.

I need to calibrate the image somehow.
the skin tones and contrast/brightness is a bit off...

the screen is plain white wall by the way.

a quick comparision with ogo's (from allinbox) screen (bootom image)

seeing all these images side by side puts me down a bit
hmmm how to calibrate the pj ....

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hello,

quick question, what made you decide to go from the 150w w/reflector/precon setup to a 400w? just curious?

thanks.

I wrote about it in the plog, I wasnt intending to change the lamp but someone was selling the 400W + ignitor for about $30 local .. so I thought I'd buy it. At the time I didnt have a precon. I was looking around to get one, so I thought I'd put in the 400W lamp to see the difference. both setups without precon 400W is much brighter, and now that I got a pyrex precon it is even better ...

you need to consider my throw is 4.5metres, thats quite far and like I said the image width is just over 3metres, so with the 150W lamp thats quite an area to lighten up ... I just didnt think it was bright enough.

apparently I had the lens the right way round the first time.
I decided to go ahead and do the lens mod elken posted about.

I got some cable ties from work. they measure 250 x 3.6mm. Just right.
but you need 2, I thought I'd cut the ends to size and superglue them together but no, I learned cable ties dont stick too good.
anyway, I cut them to size and bent them slightly and just put them in there, they are just sandwiched between the lenses.
so far so good.

I tried it out last night it seems to have done the job, but the FL changed somewhat, so I had to move the PJ around .. the focus seemed ok around the corners.

I'll have to adjust the lens position and try again...

the pincushion is gone and the corners are a bit better .. I consider that a success...
I'll try to get some screen shots tonight.

well ... I guess I spoke too fast about success

I have a MAJOR case of something
here are some screen shots

left side
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bottom center
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right side
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because there is this spread I cant focus properly, everything is kind of mixed with its surroundings. kind of like water paint...
it seems to be worse on the right side. center is so so, left side bad too but not as bad as the right.

the problem is only in the horizontal and towards the center. vertically it is almost unnoticeable.

this happened after the lens mod. the pincushion is gone for the major part, there still seems to be something quite not right, I cant tell if it the pinc. or some alignment issue.

I cant really say the root cause is alignment (mirror for ex.) since I didnt change anything apart from the lens ...
Any ideas would help ...

this is turning into one of those cases where you curse the day you decided to make a pj.
this lens was supposed to make everything fine ... rainbows were supposed to form over the pj and birds chirp

but no, nothing can go right the first time with my pj. I need to suffer for hours, working on the dinning table with none of the right tools.

anyway I tried couple of things to get rid of the "ghosting" but nothing seemed to help.

The pictures above are with the modified triplet - with 3.6mm spacer
I put in an oring, about 5mm thick and I tried without any (two lenses touching)
all gave about the same amount of ghosting

what is strange is the amount the FL changes with respect to lens distance in the triplet.

with a 3.6mm spacer the pj is about 4.5 meters, with no spacer I had to move the projector to almost 5.5metres to focus.

I tried the 22" beseler, I dont seem to have any ghosting. overall with the modified lens I still have ghosting and cant think of what else to try...

hmm still no go with the lens mod. I painted the sides of the lenses black, put in the 3.6mm spacer also painted black but it made no difference what so ever to the ghosting.

I played around with what is not fixed in the pj which are the top fresnel, LCD, bottom fresnel, mirror.
what ever I did I couldn't make the ghosting better only worse.

I still have slight pincushion on top of that.

I think I'll go back to original. the problem there was the corners were blurry but right now with the moded lens both sides top to bottom are out of focus and there is ghosting.

so if anyone has a suggestion I am willing to give it a try...

the lens is back to original. sides are still blurry but better than the modded ghosting at least.


all this 575W talk got me thinking and planning but over here it is harder to find stuff and when you do you give an arm and a leg. I thought I'd try overdriving the lamp before I do anything about getting a 575W kit, so I went ahead and overdrove the lamp without knowing what I was doing.

I still have the ballast from the 150W lamp lying around. so I just wired the two ballasts, 400 and 150, parallel and took out one of the ignitors. and woala ... first time I fired it there was a huge buzzz... more like a short. second time no sound ...

We just watched a movie with the overdriven lamp. man it gets hot. It was so hot I had a dark spot on the LCD... thewhole room was stinking like wood ... after the movie I opened the box and man it was like an oven ...

I bought a sheet of UV + IR block that I hadn't put in place yet. so I guess now would be the right time.

One thing that got me thinking is how hot the ballasts got. I dont know if they used to run so hot but it is hot to the touch...

over all the brightness has increased noticeably. I couldn't give you a measure but I'll post some screen shots in a day or two for comparison. I need to do something about the cooling ... the fans are loud as they are, I dont know what I need to put in there ... lets see how this turns out ...