That statement is quite general, and I don't think altogether correct. I'll give you a specific example why: my TV's native rez is 1366x768. When I set my computer to 1280x720, the signal extends BEYOND the edges of the TV, and I have to use a tool built into my nvidia drivers to 'underscan' to 1200x668 so that I can see everything. I've googled my TV's model number, and it seems impossible to get 1:1 with my tv because the controller card in my tv lacks a specific chip that will tell the computer what it's native rez is.

Now, you might be talking from experience with the controllers your selling, having tested them for this, but I think "a computer can scale 1:1, if the lcd controller can report it's native rez to the computer" is more accurate. Not trying to be anal, but I don't want someone mislead and going through the heart ache of unused pixels and text that doesn't look quite right as I have.

it would probably help if i understood 1:1 really meant. The way I figure it, a 16:10 image just have all the images stretched vertically a little. What does 1:1 scaling do to change this?

1 Pixel data out, lights one pixel on the LCD.

Pixels are quanta. There is no half pixel, no 2/3 pixel on an LCD.

At 1 to 1 you are seeing every pixel as it is supposed to be rendered. Any scaling degrades the picture by doing mathematical interpolation or extrapolation to calculate the RGB values of a half pixel, or a 2/3 pixel, or a 1.12 pixel. There are quite excellent scalers that use complex algorithms to scale. With 3 by 3 source pixel array data scaled to a 4 by 4 pixel array, each of the 4 by 4 pixels are composed of percentages of every pixel in the 3 by 3 array. Use graph paper to help you envision it.

As a result of scaling the image will not be as intended, it is unavoidable that softening and artifacting will occur, if you know what to look for. I have implemented scaling algorithms in software, C and ASM, and dedicated hardware scalers are a godsend. Previously, even the most optimized hand coded assembler code was not fast enough for HD on general purpose CPUs, then along came GPUs.

EDID: extended display identification protocol tells the source equipment (DVD player) the resolutions supported by the display device.

1:1 scaling keeps things in the proper aspect ratio. HighDef TV and movies will stay in 16x9 and regular TV will stay in 4:3. Without the scaling all images will be stretched to fill the whole screen. 16x9 will be slightly stretched to 16x10. Not a whole lot of a differnce, but slightly noticable still. 4:3 images will also be stretched to 16x10 which will be a HUGE difference.
Computers don't really need to "scale" the image because you can just select the resolution of 1920x1200 or whatever the panel's native resolution is. But to use a computer to "scale" the image for TV, XBox, PS3, etc, then you'd have to have a video capture card on your computer and run all of these through your computer. On the upside of this you will create a PVR system that can record all of these things.

Edit: Another thing that you might want from a controller card along with 1:1 is "aspect fill". With regular TV in a ratio of 4:3 will still show as a small image in the middle of the screen since it is only 525 lines vertical on a 1200 vertical screen (WUXGA, the 15.4" screens that most people here are using)

I'm now running a Toshiba panel, with a realtek controller.

One thing I can say I am awesomely happy with, is this controller CAN switch between 4:3 and 16:10!!! YAY! Mainly for watching SDTV, or playing VHS or even SD DVDs...

Now, as for the TV tuner, I am getting strange blue ghosting over the flesh tones. I can see it works OK for a split second when I first plug the cable in, but then it changes - does anyone know what this is, and maybe how to fix/minimise it?

I also found the secret menu, but honestly don't know what any of the values set.

Speaking of setting values, apparently this controller doesn't allow for contrast/brightness adjustment? When I adjust them, the picture does not visibly change. What am I missing?

amazingly... i still dont get it. How does the 16:10 panel become 16:9 without displaying partial pixels? Do some of the pixels on the lcd just not get used at all?

Yes, when using the WUXGA panel as a 1080p panel the top and bottom are just not used at all and are black.

ok, excellent. Can anyone recommend a good hardware or software scaler for a pc or otherwise?

I think you might still be slightly confused? maybe if you describe exactly what you want to happen to the signal in the following situations, we can recommend the correct solution for you.

You're playing a game at 1600x1200. If you had a controller with 1:1, you could [a] have the 1600x1200 in a box at the center of the screen with 160 unused black pixels on either side, or [b] you could stretch the signal to fill the entire screen (no black pixels).

Now lets say you've got a 1280x720 signal. you could [a] have the signal in a box in the center with 320 unused black pixels above and below it and 240 unused black pixels on either side of it, or you could [b] stretch the 1280 until they are 1920 pixels, and the 720 accordingly to match it's original 16:9 ratio (horizontal black bars at the top and bottom but none at the sides), or you could [c] stretch the 16:9 1280x720 signal to fill the entire 16:10 1920x1200 screen (no black pixels).

A backlight?
Seriously, if you still have your backlight and inverter, attach it, and adjust the brightness and see if the backlight changes brightness. Almost all inverters have a backlight adjustment pin, and most controllers will vary the backlight to some degree for brightness level. Others use a combination of backlight brightness, and gray scale changes to accomplish the tasks.

So, if the backlight isn't there (of course), maybe that's why you see no change.

Oh it is there, I haven't done any disassembly yet.

And its not just the brightness, its also the contrast, and color level adjustments...if I turn the red to either 0 or 255 for example, there is no difference in the picture, even if I turn the controller off and on.

I guess I wasn't paying attention that you hadn't disassembled it, and, to say the least, that's really bizarre!
I know you said Realtek, but, what controller is it? Realtek doesn't actually manufacture controllers, but they do manufacture scaler chips.
Not that knowing the manufacture will do any good, maybe I'm just curious.

Heh, ok. I'm at work now, when I get home I will take down as many numbers off it as I can

Also still wondering about the TV tuner blue overshadow issue. There is a pot inside the tuner box that I can adjust, and may be able to get it working. The shadowing goes away if I touch the signal wire while it is running, but it looks very noisy. Also, if I invert the hue, the blue shadow becomes the color it should be, but there is still shadowing when the color changes, and not to mention every other color is inversed!

i'm not confused. I want the picture to have pixels cut out, so that it is display in perfect 16:9. I dont want any streching whatsoever, and I want to know what I can filter my image through in order to make that happen.

You should be able to see my previous post about this to help you out. Yes, you can use a computer to "scale" the image for you. I use my computer as a home theater PC and play my DVDs from it and with the nVidia driver it upsamples it rather nicely.
The computer doesn't really "scale" an image though. In the display properties you change the resolution to what your display is, ie 1920x1200. This is a 16x10 resolution, but that doesn't mean that it is going to "stretch" an image that is 16x9 to 16x10 to fill the screen. If you are using your computer to watch DVDs or downloaded movies then it is not going to stretch the image out of proportion unless you change the resolution of your computer. Whatever the resolution of your panel (1920x1200 WUXGA is what most people are talking about here) is what you want your computer's display properties to be set to.
If you want to use your computer as a "scaler" to watch HDTV, TV, game console, etc. then you'd need to install a video capture card such as the ATI TVWonder 650 PCI. Then you would put the video signal through the capture card and use the software player to display on your monitor or PJ in full screen mode. Extremely complicated if you get into more than one video source, and not really worth the money of it all. Be better off getting a controller that does suit your needs.

If you do have any other questions about doing the computer thing then feel free to drop me a line. I'm new to the PJ building, but I'm an IT specialist and high fi efficianato

Hi Guys,

I have some news - the tech who is working on the Kontron thinks that my LCD is dodgy - which is why he can't get it working (it could be as I bought if off eBay and had nothing to test it with). Does anybody have a known-working panel they can send to them?

I have pasted the email I got from Kontron below:

The engineer discovered a white crusty residue inside the LCD whilst he has been working on it, he believes it has been exposed to some kind of liquid, possible sea water, anyway the situation is this: After all the patches have been run the colour mapping is not sending the colours in the correct order also the reproduction is fuzzy both in colour and black and white. He also says that the LCD has had a hard life and is wondering if it is the lcd that could be faulty and not the fact that it is not compatible with our CRTto LCD board. It is up to you whether you want him to continue or return the LCD. As he says it could possibly be the LCD’s condition causing the problems, without a known functioning unit it is difficult to determine.

hi everybody
perhaps i made a mistake but you could do 1:1 with a soft:
powerstrip ==> http://www.clubic.com/telecharger-fiche9627-powerstrip.html

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/ps.shtm


No ?, i think it should work...

Yes that works, but a lot of people want 1:1 with the PS3, Xbox 360, Dvd player , etc.

Does anybody have or know where I can obtain the manual or datasheet on the new mstar 15.4 wuxga controller brd.that johnzo is selling?

TIA

B0SC0

I remember looking for that at one point, and even the manufacturer didn't have the controller listed on it's web site and the last update to that site was back in February.
I think this is an earlier version of the board with SCART:
http://www.top-tech.com.cn/english/Product...p?ArticleID=113
A closer picture: http://www.top-tech.com.cn/english/UploadF...29144913663.jpg

I looked at johnzos site, but there isn'tt much information on this controller. (he may not have much)
I don't see the manufacturers part number listed.

Powerstrip is for custom tweaks and custom resolutions. 1920x1200 (WUXGA) is a supported resolution by almost all graphics cards if you have enough video memory. You don't need Powerstrip to get 1920x1200 or 1920x1080, you just select it in your display properties. It won't be selectable until you have a display hooked up that can handle the resolution though, such as the 15'4 panels or a monitor that has that resolution.

I know but you can also have a lower resolution like 1600*1200,
i 've used it on a broken lcd panel (with a little vertical strip on the right side which doesn't work)
I've adjusted the reso in 775*600 instead of 800*600 and it's perfect.
so i think you could adjust in 1600*1200 and then you should have 1:1.

Sorry, it's hard to explain what i think in english.
I hope you could understand me

I asked johnzo and he doesn't have any paper work on this.

Anyone have a picture of the same image at 16x9 and 16x10 (or even 4x3)? How noticable is it, or does the picture quality also reduce due to using 1.11 pixels for one etc?

For those who need help understanding the aspect ratio problems and what a "non-scaling" will do.

4x3 origional image



stetched to fit a 16x10 screen/projector



a 1920x1080 (high-def) image I chose so you can see the squares and the round ball



now stretched to 1920x1200 (WUXGA) which is what most people are using for high-def projectors



You can see that the ball is slightly stretched so it's no longer a round ball, and same with the squares, no longer squares. Not a big deal for some, for others, like me, it is. Keep in mind that it will stretch the hell out of your regular TV, PS2, Xbox, etc that are in 4x3 to fill the screen

Has anyone checked the s-video connection ? On the 10.6 MST controller you can select 1:1 when using s-video. This is for preserving the aspect ratio of 4:3 material using this connection (480i). Why on only s-video and not component ? ... simply don't know, but as long as a person uses that connector 4:3 shouldn't be a problem.

gs

thanks for the pics mac_angel, that really puts things is perspective. It's abundantly clear to me that I need to broadcast in native 16x9, somehow with a 16x10 panel.

When I was testing the new MST controller to make sure it worked after getting it I found this option. I was using D-Sub from the secondary monitor output of my laptop. There was some sort of option to have the controller display a 4:3 AR.

Maybe I can post some pictures after I get everything up and running.

Yea, that's why people are talking about "scaling" on the panels. On a 16x10 panel, with a scaler, it can display proper 16x9, you'll just have a black bar at the top and bottom. Same kind of idea when you put a 4x3 image, like an older TV show, on a widescreen TV. The black bars will be on the sides for that one.

This is a bit off topic here, but I am hoping that you guys could help.

I have been thinking about putting 4 LCD's together into a big one.

Is this possible ? I have not stripped any LCD monitor, so I don't know how it looks like. But usually, are the edges apparent after you take off the cover ? I mean do you get an edge-free image if you place 4 "open" LCD screen together ?

I am talking about any size, including the WUXGA ones we discussed here. Thanks.

PS. it's not for a projector by the way. I was simply thinking about putting 4 x 20 inchers of 22 inchers into a 40-44 incher. Or perhaps 4 x 15.4 wUXGA into a 30 inch portable one.

Every Lcd has a 3-5mm border around it that will not display an image. So you will have edges to deal with.

Is this something we can safely trim off ?

No. Keep in mind how an LCD is manufactured. There at least needs to be a seal around the two glass plates holding the liquid crystal "goo" in place, plus any circitry embedded between the plates for control, perhaps an LCD could be manufactured to make it smaller than the 3-5mm, but it would never be small enough to seamlessly match up with another panel. Better to just go and buy a 30-40" 1080p LCD TV.

or Dell's 3007WFP-HC. Roughly the same as Apple's display but cheaper.

mac,

can you link a place to find one of those scalers you were referring to that would cause black bars on the top and bottom?

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdp_details

i'm sorry, i meant can you link me to something thats not twice my overall budget

No can do. A real scaler that will add black bars will have a retail cost of $1000-$5000. Ebay prices around $400 or more.

is there a software option through an htpc?

Yes you can use Powerstrip.

Info here:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/powerstrip.html

so depending on what video card i had, i could run xbox and ps3 through that, right?

you don't need powerstrip to get 1920x1200 or 1920x1080. They are built into the drivers of the graphics cards. You just need 256MB or higher or video will really suck. The computer will keep all native resolutions that you put through it, so if you put a high def picture (1080i or 1080p) through it then you will have the black bars at the top and the bottom (60 pixel lines each). If you put a 4x3 picture through it then you'll have the black bars on the sides (160 pixel lines each).
The AllInWonder ATI graphics cards do have video in, but they don't support high def input signals (1080i or 1080p). You'd have to buy a seperate input card that does support the high def signal and I don't know of any that have component or HDMI inputs off the top of my head, only coaxial. Also, doing this, you'd have to constantly change the cable around if you want to change the video from your xbox to your ps3.

EDIT: found some capture cards that have DVI. If you use a home theatre AV unit and put all your video inputs through that, then you can go from the AV unit to the HTPC with the capture card.

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/hdtv-cards.html

i dont understand it 100%, but i think the point is it can be done. On to the next step.

if someone is interested, here is LG.Philips LP154WU1

HitesFiero: does your C2L7MM support HDCP?

I don't totally agree with this. The standard 1920x1200 resolution will obviously work with the panels, however 1080p is a different story. If the standard 1920x1080 resolution is selected in the video driver, it's going to output a 1080p signal, so if the panel does not support this signal, you won't get black bars. I believe nVidia supports tweeking the timings to alter the signal to display correctly, or perhaps they also have a "centered timings" option like ATI ? I've found in the past that selecting "centered timings" doesn't always work for me. I'm not even Powerstrip is the surefire answer either. I've found that it only works (at times anyway) when using a VGA connection, not with DVI.

The main thing here is if you are using a tuner, sat box, game system, upscaling DVD player, etc... you cannot use component, dvi and/or VGA as an HD INPUT into an HTPC. (that card you liked to doesn't support any HD inputs). This is why it's nice to have an LCD controller that has the different scaling modes to control different aspect ratio's of video signals. Besides 1:1 (which is nice for 1080i/p inputs), "aspect fill" is also nice to have for 720p inputs as a 720p input with 1:1 is going to appear "windowboxed", which is black bars to the top/bottom and sides. Aspect Fill, maintains aspect ratio while making the picture fill the screen until the first boundary is encountered (ie. SD inputs will be pillarboxed and HD inputs will be letterboxed).

gs

Hi Guys,

I have been in talks with my contact at Kontron - I have just realized that the tech is actually in Australia - as the Australian Kontron is a privately owned company and does everything themselves.

As I mentioned before - the panel I sent them, seems to be in a bad state and is probably why they can't get it working (I didn't have a controller to test it).

What I need is somebody in Australia with a 15.4" panel that is a known working panel - to send to Sydney. I have already received an offer from a US resident to send their panel - but it would obviously be easier if it was from within Australia as shipping costs would be cheaper.

PM me if you are interested.

By the way - the tech has said he has the panel working - but its fuzzy and colours are bad due to my panel being dodgy.

Excellent, I'm really glad to see progress at last! I would have liked to help, but the US rep I talked with couldn't seem to get me any answers. I called maybe a couple times a week for over a month and he never gave me a concrete answer on whether or not if I ordered the CRT2LCD7MM, if it would come with HDCP for sure.

I've got a panel heading to me from ebay, but I live in Canada and I haven't tested it, so I'm no help there. But perhaps the simplest solution is just to do the opposite? HF has both a working 15.4" panel and the kontron panel and can program it. Why not let him test the .pnl file your tech in Sydney has made? Perhaps get HF in direct contact with the tech if it doesn't work, and they can sort it out?

Anyway, keep up the good work, Kancerus. I can't thank you enough for moving things along, and I know I'm not the only one.

I'd be happy to have a look at the panel file. I've got my flicker problem resolved. I'm currenly building an adapter to run the backlight for testing purposes, shining a flashlight through the panel and bouncing the light off the back panel makes it kind of hard to truly evaluate the image quality.
I should have pics up soon!
FYI
If you are not an electronics person or don't care about 1:1 scaling or the adaptive motion deinterlacing, then buy Johnzo's kit. This it alot of work! I have more time into the Kontron system than I did on my entire first 17" PJ build! Don't get me wrong, the Multimedia 7 is a fantastic controller, there is just a lot of R&D involved in making it work for new panel.

Sorry to chime in, but regarding the G2A boards and gamma adjustment, here is why it is disabled.

email message below:

Dobie, hello again.

Is there a reason why gamma adjustment is disabled on the G2A controllers? Is there any way to turn it on?

Thanks,
Erik

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Wong <alan.wong@aispro.com> to Nelson, annie.young, me, Dobie
show details 12:12 pm (3½ hours ago)

Dear Erik,



During our testing of the G2A Board, we found if we adjusted gamma curve, it creates a lot of noise on the monitor. So we disabled this function.



Best Regards,



Alan Wong

Sales Engineer

American Industrial Systems, Inc.

1768 McGaw Ave.

Irvine, CA 92614

Tel: 949-681-7464

Cell: 949-929-0559

Fax: 949-251-8697

email: alan.wong@aispro.com

Kancerus, is it possible to ask your man to take a photo of the problem? there are certainly 6 different colour ordering in the OpenLDI protocol, maybe just a wrong one has been applied in the controller.