Have you got any steak knives to go with it
hey ..if it helps ur not alone

Although actually Im not concerned...what elken has learned and taught us all... is more than worth the cost of an extra lamp.

Hey I have a set of ginsue, knives,,, going for a bargain.......

Nice post. Very informative. Thanks for the lux readings. I wish we all had access to that type of equipment !

The only place I disagree with you is how you state lumens are less important if you have a high power screen (2.8 gain I assume). A high power screen will give you the same brightness as a PJ producing 2.8x the lumens... this is sort of a contradiction, but I do realize that the HP will do more than just increase brightness, I believe it also helps to increase contrast. (maybe by increaseing brightness ??)

cheers,
gs

Thanks. Wanted to say the same thing than you indeed. You can get the missing lumens with a high power screen (a 100 lumens projector will become a 280lumens one ...)

I'm on the market to find a philips electronic ballat and a CDM 150W. I just want to try and will be able to resell that if not happy with it ... Still no answer from OSRAM for those 250W powerballs with same spectral distribution ... I also found a spec for a HCI-T 250/942 NDL but no store

Nice review to back up elkens experiences. I don't think there is one person on these boards that doubts elkens claims of improved color, contrast and overall joy with his image. I think the questions all arise around "why" is this the case.... is it the small arc ? is the the spectrum ? is it being a 150W lamp (less lumens) ? Why do we want to know ? ... because then we can go and try different things...

I hate to point this out, but it's about the above statements of 'lumens not being everything' and the fact you say using a 2.8 Da-Lite would "result in an awesome image!!" People generally use a 2.8 gain screen for brightness increase... personally i'd rather have a 1.0 gain screen with a PJ producing 2.8x the lumens BUT... with the same quality elken is experiencing with his 150W lamp. If I (we) can find a way to use a 150W lamp, 17" panel and produce an image where someone would be quite happy using a screen with a gain of 1.0 (like BOC or white wall) then we would have found the holy grail.... the question is now far are we away from that point. Elken appears to already be there, but you do not.

Elken has done (is doing?) an excellent job in changing the mentality of "maximizing lumens" to one of "maximizing picture quality" (ie. contrast, color rendering, etc...), so lumens may not be the most important aspect... but it is an aspect and should not be overlooked.... what we really need to determine is what is producing the excellent PQ ?? I suppose if we had 150W, 250W and 400W ceramic lamps with the same 942 color (4000K, 90+CRI) we could figure this out pretty well... but that may have to wait a bit until these lamps become readily available... until then it'd be nice to go "lumen hunting" using the 150W lamp with a known PQ... but alas... elken does not want to join this hunt... That's ok... I think others will soon be going on this hunt (including myself perhaps ??) (theme from bugs bunny going thru my head "kill da wabbit, kill da wabbit..."

thanks again arkay & elken !

cheers,
gs

thanx GS... I have been too busy watching back to back eps of stargate season 10,, upto ep 7 yeaaaa,,, heheheh

oh ps the ref to 2.8 gain is that extra above how it is now, 1.0, and as is, is far better than before..

ohh and a real big PS,, I have not even really tried to squeeze the lemon yet either, the real adventure begins soon,,, to be continued,, same channel, another time..............

8 is a pealer

GS,

Sorry. My bad. My comments regarding lumens are more I guess in defence of Elkens unwillingness to spend time on readings when there is so much else he can be applying his talents to.

Where I seem to contradict myself above is based on the assumption that many people seem to desire a lumen output between 200-300. Elkens PJ was perfectly watchable as it was on what must be near a 1.0 gain screen. What I was trying to get it is that if the 150w provides the spectral, contrast/brightness, crispness of image that is what we all aim for then it is not such a bad thing to take that image and increase it's brightness via a high gain screen (if individually you require that brightness).

As apposed to increasing the brightness with higher wattage lamps at the expense of the picture quality.

Unfortunatley without side by side comparison we will never really know. People may want 300 lumens but that figure may be based on "their" current projection they have measured at 200. Brightness may not be the answer in all cases and it could be that an image properly balanced with depth but only 100 lumen may actually change that perception of the higher lumen requirement.

Even if the 250w with same spectral output proves to double lumens at the screen it is still an interesting point to weigh up. The decreased heat and electrical running costs over time may well justify the purchase of a high gain screen (if you are in a position to use a high gain). i.e It suits your room, lighting conditions, seting arrangement etc. It is of course all subjective.

I'm a perfect example. I used the 400w HQI in what became the Elken original test box and it certainly was very bright, but it was washed out, no real blacks. At the time we beleived it was a result of the panel's contrast ratio. I don't now think that it is. It could simply be that there was too much light. I beleive the tendancy to think that you need more lumens is a result of the wash out. It makes sense to think it's not crisp enough so I need more brightness when in actual fact less brightness is what will provide the crisper image. It's all about the distance between peak black and peak white. Too much light limits the blacks so that maybe you are receiving 80% of the range. That extra 20% is what makes things pop.

At any rate I understand why everyone wants to see lumen readings but I also understand why those readings may not really be telling you what you need to know.

I'll be watching very closely as others start going down the 150w road. So far reality is dis-proving logic for me.

Cheers,

Arkay.

I fully agree with you.

I'm trying to get an electronic 150W philips ballast + two 150W CDM-TD bulbs to play with. If i can get them i will test them and reports results :
- in lumens
- but more important, i will measure the CR ratio i obtain and i will be able to calibrate this puppy (with the gretag) and then "scientifically" compare it to the HQI

As as side note, got a response from Osram France about the powerball HCI-TS 250W/942 : not yet available in France ... I'm waiting answers from contacts in Belgium and Switzerland

Talking about ranges, there is something i didn't say in my calibration session report. A well balanced LCD which covers the full sRGB gamut will output 16 millions colors. My calibrated LCD have a gamut of only 8 to 9 millions colors because of all the red/blue missing ...

hence my term a while ago,, called colour contrast range

I am the one who pointed out that the sharpness is mainly due to the size of the arc, thus, why the commercial projectors are turned to the other direction, so there is a very very small arc. But this arc is not much smaller than a 575w double ended from what I have measured, if at all. So all in all, I still am confused, I thought you had a lumen tester now? That is still the biggest concern for me. Please let me know where you are on the tests of lux etc. Thanks

I'm not sure what to make of this. I took your statements to be more or less your personal review and comments about what you saw, not based on what elken or anybody else thinks.

So, tell us honestly, if you had this PJ in your home would you go and purchase a HP screen, or stick to a 1.0 screen? I really want to know if you feel like you need more brightness... my guess is that yes, if there were a magic brightness knob, you'd turn it up a bit... doesn't matter how much, but would you reach for it ?

It's funny that a simple lumen request at the time was so benine, but has almost reached "soap oprah" proportions... Many have thanked elken for his contributions, including myself, but please do say elken has no time for a 3 minute lumen measurement because he needs to apply his talents elsewhere... it is belittling of others around here that have just as many talents... he has choosen not to do measurements for his own reasons, and it will be up to others to experiement to get those answers. No problem, and no hard feelings at all.

Yes, there are many unanswered questions arising around the 150W lamp... most of which are all unanswered... The lamp being a lower lumen lamp has certainly been in the backs of peoples minds in terms of brighness, except the discussion was about having a 1000W lamp producing less quality due to "bleed through"... the problem there is that there have been people with 1000W setups and 400W setups that produce the same type of image, but there are "issues" that arise with long arcs. I guess personally i'm thinking the spectrum and arc have much to do with the quality increase, but I certainly haven't thrown out lower lumens as the case. Again... not even enough lamps out there to test all the theories. I know that someone recently tried a 400W CDM lamp with good results... I believe it was the same color temperature... maybe the spectrum of the lamp has everything to do with the quality, maybe it's a little bit of everything... so many questions, so little time. My feelings recently have been to buy a 150W lamp, and even if I find brightness wanting, it will provide a baseline for what's to come... yes, lumen hunting again...

I hope you realize that I truely do not mean to antagonize, although some of what I wrote may come aross that way... it is not my intention. My intentions are to search out the truth and how this applies to making a better PJ. Elken has found something that's good... now it's just a question of how far can we push this without making it "bad" ??

cheers,
gs

I have several questions.

1) When you make the LCD panel black does it block all light or does some get through?

2) If some gets through at what lumens (Lamp Lumens) does that get to be a problem?

Seems to me that my panel dosen't block all the light which means as you increase the lumens the whites get brighter and the blacks get lighter also.

3) Is this difference between the light level of the white and black the contrast ratio?

I think the reason people dont believe just how good the CDM-TD 150W lamp is because of the low wattage rating.

I read on a couple websites that they recommend replacing 1000watt lamps with one of these 150W CDM's !!

Short Arc, Hi CRI, UV Blocked and low heat output, if only they made a 250watt version.

Im going to use a CDM-TD setup in my retrofit using a Osram Powertronic PTU150w ECG Ballast, will fire it up in a couple days when my LCD panel arrives. Cant Wait!

Thanks Shotfire for your efforts

GS,

Ok... Fair enough. No, my opinions were and are not affected by Elkens. What I was trying to say (though I seem to have been taken the wrong way), is that I agree with his views that lumen measurements are not the be all and all of this discussion. That is all.

In all honesty. Yes. The brightness in Elkens room with reduced ambient light and 150" screen size and a 1.0 gain screen was acceptible to me and I would have no problem sitting there watching the image until the cows come home. It doesn't need to be any brighter and in fact, more brightness would have been painful to my eyes.

Remember though that the sitting distance, the screen size etc all plays a part. In my house I sit twice as far from the screen to view my plasma as what Elken does. Incidentally I found my plasma on the next viewing after watching Elkens PJ to appear "overbright". I figure my eyes adjust to the image at hand.

What I can't make comment on is how it would look in my house on 110" screen (as I have not seen it there), at best I can make the assumption that it would be bright enough as is though I could choose to increase that brightness via a higher gain screen should I find a need to do so.

Cheers,

Arkay.

Thanks for clarifying Arkay. This is indeed good info... and good news that brightness is that good from a 150W lamp on a 17" screen. I'm not sure about the 150" screen size... was that really the image size ? ... with his setup the image has been much smaller than the screen since going to the pro lens setup.

cheers,
gs

@gadgetSmiith

The size of the screen was only 150cm, guessing just a typo.

It will be interesting to see how it performs at anything over 100", i have no real grasp on the relationship between image size and lumen output .... hmmmmm this is getting good

Ooops. Yes, sorry. Was a typo. I meant 150cm's.

Cheers,

Arkay.

40 LUX is a fairly high number with no condenser and no reflector.

I was playing around with that 175 watt 10k HQI lamp with the 10mm x21mm arc tube hooked to a dimmer. I could change the power from about 250 watts to about 500 watts and watch the screen at the same time.

Their was one small range where the picture looked way better. Lots of contrast and it almost looked brighter than the 500 watt setting. (Yes I was running a 175 watt lamp at 500 watts!) What caused this I don't know?

Is there a point of LUX where the LCD just looks better?

The lamp is changing color temp maybe the best picture is when the color temp is just right for the LCD?

The lamp is over driven a lot; maybe at the higher power levels it only makes more UV and pink and no useable light?

I think some lamps might look better with a little tuning to help get the color to mach the LCD better.

After I get the main PJ up I will get back the the small lamp.

Some German guys are testing and comparing HCI, CDM, etc ... on this forum : forum

You know how serious german people are when it comes to technical things

PS: unfortunatly i learned german for 7 years at scholl, but still don't understand a single word of what they say

well monster PJ, is elvolving like a 'transformer' as we sit,, she's changing form,,, hehehehhe,, bigscreen returns real soon... 110" diag again,, woo hoo and using some serious lens shifting too

Yay, i was a little concerned with the mug shot of the 'monster' pj. i almost threw up... just joking......

Hmmmmm.... 110" with the room you had there, hmmmmm what is going on here...... i will watching intently

oh and find my friggen polar bear damn it

Arrrhhhh, Now this should be interesting.

Larger projection, lens shift too ay.

And maybe a little bit of fresnel tilt as well?

Looking forward to seeing what effect these adjustments make on the image using the 150watter especially with the 0.2mm frezzies.

well after some interesting twists, which will be explained later, my fully straight thru shooter, but with external mirror, is operational IE ( still vertical ).. the image at 120" is still as good as before...

I am too busy watching continuing eps of Stargate season 10......

hmmmmm the plot thickens..... external mirror + 120" and still the same image quality ....

tommorow cant come soon enough......

Well German should be as good as Elkin speak anyhow Do they have LUX meters in Germany?

well at full power,, er screen size of 120", she is perfect, with the new modified Pro Triplet,, corner to corner perfect focus,, corner to corner perfect illumination.. even the edges all around perimeter as sharply defined too..

I now finally have a final design,, so next is to build an elegant PJ, with some style to her,, and just purely and simply use her, at my bidding

and a side note this powerball is getting brighter and purer, every night she is fired up,,, still well under 100 hours use too... mmmm

I have an idea,,, blonde... mmmmmm

also,, i reverted lens back to original configuration,,,,, nup yukkkkkk

bigger screen did have same pincusion, and smear in corners too... redid mod,,, ahhhhhhh perfect......

ummm not being impolite,,,, it gonna happen,, someone else who vetures forth, can do so,,, i have way too many things to do , without being side tracked by time consuming measurements that dont provide real information.. they subvert and detract from what I am after..

If I sound curt on this point so be it.. if I am not believed as to results I provide freely,, so be it,, I could just simply go stealth,, and not inspire further gains.. this is an adventure,, and every inch is rigorous, and time consuming.. I nearly relented to doing measurements,, but threw it away, and within three hours resolved a very very annoying pincusion artifact, with an extra gain perfect corner focus, plus major lens shifting ability,, plus several other yet to be stated gains too..

so bottom line is if I hear one more taunt about luxism,, I will go completely stealth.. no if's, no buts or what's.....

You're subjecting us all to the Lumenlab equivalent of a strip-tease! :angry:

C'mon elken . . . take it off . . . take it ALL off.

Edit: Please note I didn't use the taboo word.

Your conceitedness never seizes to amaze me. You’re either the perfect car salesman or the perfect bulb salesman.

For sure.


"without being side tracked by time consuming measurements that dont provide real information.. "


Yeah, ok... No real info? Time consuming? Just a reading in the middle will tell us what we already know. Later guys.

Just ordered a Vosslah Schwabe with suitable capacitor and ignitor, cant wait to start this.

Thanks elkin for all your hard work

PLEASE DISPENSE WITH PERSONAL ATTACKS THIS ISN"T THE PLACE FOR IT !!!
Personal attacks do not get us anywhere.

Elken you've helped me greatly. I had not used my projector for months because I was'nt happy with the colors. After installing a ceramic lamp I am now using it every day. I had my tv on at the same time as the projector and could tell very little difference in the colors. I now actually use my PJ. My dad came over and saw my results based on your efforts and now I'm helping him build his first PJ. I should have my Pro kit , reflector, and FS Mirror in any day now. Can't wait to continue the evolution.

I've tried to provide some numbers, I will provide more, in a new thread for those who seem to find this necessary.

Elken please continue, forget the numbers, the results are what is important.

Thanks Again
Shot

Feel like I need to say something...

I have to state that I believe the Elken is right to not want to post lumen measurements to be compared. Its seems to me that Elken has found something interesting and fun and brings several questions to forum. Thats excellent!

What will not be excellent is when folks start to bash lumie readings from bulbs that are fundamentally different. What matters is not the lumens but the quality of the picture TO SOME. To some, its the other way around. I think Elken knows that comparing lumie readings from this bulb to , say, a 400w is like comparing an Apple to a PC. They just arent built the same way and thus have different strengths and weaknesses.

In a way all the projectors that we are building are like speakers. Each ear and each speaker interact differently with each other and every person's experience is different.
In terms of the PJ /speaker comparison, Elken has found his ideal speaker ( for him). He knows it, is satisfied with it and is ready to luxuriate in it.

Can you blame him if he doesnt want to post lumie readings because he knows the crap storm that will ensue from people who havent seen the PJ in person? It kinda takes the fun out of what is supposed to be a hobby...

Elken, I know you are donating a lot of time , money, and effort to this hobby and I just wanted to thank you. I dont need lumies. Your word that the picture is crisp and good is all I need to hear.

Respects,
SamuraiJack

DITTO !!

I also like to add that people have no right to demand anything from elkin. He has donating his time and energy for you lot and provided us with priceless information. He didn't have to. I think we can all gather from this thread it's all about 'quality' lumens anyway. As the old saying goes its quality not quantity that counts. Maybe he doesn't want to take lux measures because he knows fine the only way to appreciate what he has found is to try it for yourselves.

I hope you do still continue to participate in this thread elkin.

Cheers.

Well said, everyone.
I really don't understand the constant nagging for lumen measurements. If you want high lumens, just take the LCD out of your projector. Sure, the picture is pretty bland, but oh, so many luxies!

However, if you'd like a nice, crisp picture, with true-to-life colors, then maybe you put down the light meter and try some new things.

Oh, and, THANKS ELKEN. Great work.

There's a whole lotta love in this "room"!!!!

Now get back to work on that new PJ you brilliant bag of bulbs and keep those posts comin'!

And thank you...you've certainly "illuminated" a noob.

Its quite obvious many members appreciate your work Elken, including me.

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating" as the saying goes.

I for one hope you continue cooking.

Great work mate.

One kit with powerball coming in a few days (I purchase 2 days ago)... lol
The link (maybe useful for someone in Europe):
http://62.75.177.102/shop2/index.php?user=...zahl=1&ck=3

And Elken, I purchase this because you made a great job. I thought to purchase a 400W LL kit, but I save money, and sure for a very good results.
I would like to see your new results and your new design.

Good Job!!!!!

Thank you.

So Elken,

When are you gonna get off your ar$% and have those lux measurements done then?

(Mwuhahahah)..

Cheers,

Arkay.

Ummmmmmm


Thanks Guys... what can I say, and sorry if I seemed over reactive,, but SAM's post quite right...

Once you fix a number to something,, then you distract yourself chasing a goal, that is from my view not the real goal,, I look it from that the better the focus, the purer the light and clean geometry, the brighter the image will be, also the better the matching of precons and positioning. then one can get the max out of whichever lamp we choose..

Please a reminder,,, I will stay with 150 watts for reasons of running economy, and safety,, so much less heat, means much less risk of damage, to unit etc..

I will be putting the HQI module back in hopefully during this weekend too,,, now heheheh I could be blown away by something brighter,, who knows, but even if this is the case,, 150 watt will go back in, its been too long since I ran 400 watts,, ummmm july 27th I think...

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,,, hey you are my LUX reader,,, hehehehhehe

Check out www.allinbox.com projector site. The majority of the projectors are using 150w and 250w bulbs.

I have a 400 watt bulb, but the idea of a lower watt bulbs interest me for some good reasons.

The main reasn is the heat. Even with a a lot of air flowing inside the box it stills get hot. I live in Phoenix, Az and lower heat is always nice.

Regards,
Traynor

I just wanted to chime in here to say thanks to Elken also. This came at just the right time for me. I was lucky enough to discover an unused 100 watt ceramic philips bulb at work I can play with. There is also a 175 watt ballast I can play with. And I have an idea for home brewing an ignitor that I want to try out.

I am also hoping that you will get a chance to try that 1mm arc bulb with the 0.2mm fresnels.

Thanks again for sharing with us.

David.

"I will be putting the HQI module back in hopefully during this weekend too,,, now heheheh I could be blown away by something brighter,, who knows, but even if this is the case,, 150 watt will go back in, its been too long since I ran 400 watts,, ummmm july 27th I think..."

The HQI( Is that the newer OSRAM HQI 400 watt?) has a lot larger arc and some LUX to throw away. You might get a smaller arc image and thus a higher contrast image and more even light by placing the condenser a little closer than where max arc magnification occurs.

You have a large Powerstat or autotransformer (You did a test with it a long time ago) if you add about 5uf of cap to the ballast you could vary the power to the HQI from about 300 watts to 500 watts.
I now think that the lamps might need to be power matched to the LCD for the best contrast, Changing the power does changes the color temp and may change the peaks in the spectral line some so one power level may be poor and one may be great.

No need for LUX readings it’s a 400 v a 150.

It’s like teaching a hockey player to figure skate

problem with caps here, they go across the mains input as a power factor cap only we dont use caps in series with lamp, the ballast is a pure choke type..