I'm going to build a new box to put my new frezzs and new pro lens. Look over my numbers to see if they're alright. Unsplit design.

Center of lamp to first 220mm frez. is 220mm (8.66 inches)

220mm frez to 650mm frez is 12.70mm (1/2 inch) -- this will be sandwiched in one frame on 3/4 inch aspen.
(no open air gap).

650mm frez to lcd = 6.23mm (1/4inch) or as close as possible and maybe fixed against it (not decided)
I figure the lcd may need an some air flow for cooling. I may split my air flow to both sides of
the frezzs that way the lcd will get some air flow too.

Now here is a biggy- the lcd to mirror. ??? From what I've read so far the measurement from the 650 frezz is 650mm (25.59 inches) to the center of the lens triplet. Passing through the lcd just like it wasn't there. So the mirror distance is up in question.
I'm having a tough time trying to figure this out or do I wait until I get a picture and then adjust accordingly.

I kinda figure to center the triplet to the center of the mirror on a 45degree angle and let the mirror/lens box do the 650mm adjustment (focus).

btw.I am going to put Lexan in-between the lamp and first frezz. I believe I am going to seal this area from the rest of the pj. Use a seperate fan there (box in lamp heat) and use another for the lcd/frezz area.

Edited-- Not doing the upside down- still using the same setup though. Lamp on the bottom.

JUMP TO THE HDCP COMPIANT GATEWAY FPD1975W HERE

I'm pretty dang certain you should maintain some space between your field fresnel and LCD or you run the risk of projecting the fresnel grooves. I think 3 millimeters (1/8 inch) is the recommened bare minimum. More like 15 millimeters (5/8 inch) is way better/easier/"safer".

The mirror just folds the light and doesn't change any distances.

You can align the triplet and mirror like you said and use them in tandem on a sled to adjust focus.

I know there are at least a few upside-down verticals out there - maybe elken? - so a look through the plog page titles should hook you up with someone with actual experience.

Yes, you will want to keep 10-15mm of gap between the LCD and field fresnel to keep fresnel rings from appearing on your projected image... you will want this anyway for cooling. LCD cooling is the priority as the target temperature is <100°F.

I use a mirror/triplet sled for the time being for focusing. Remember though, triplet focusing is dependent upon your throw so you should run Dazz's program to determine the correct triplet placement for focusing. Another thing is that triplet location should be based on the LCD to Triplet distance as this is the important dimension for producing focus.

cheers,
gs

How close should the 2 frezs be together. I am allowing 1/4 inch (6.7mm) right now. Is this enough?

The closer they are the more critical alignment becomes to the best of my knowledge. I've read 3 mm minimum so you should be fine at 1/4 inch. The general recommendation is 10 mm.

I have now made it 3/4 inch 19mm. It was easy to do it just an extra frame. Hope this isn't to far. Also I can change it if it is. Still carving.

I can make this gap smaller if needed or is 19mm sufficient? I can get it to around 10mm if I really need to. As you said 10mm is recommended.

Unless you need to bring them closer together due to space constraints I believe that your extra space is neither detrimental nor extreme. I'd say you're good at 3/4".

Great Start Today. Thanks for all the advice Durachko & GagetSmith. It's appreciated.







Did run into a little snag. Not enough nuts and washers. Now I'm out of angle brackets for the frez frames.
I started making the slots in the frames to follow the mitered joint for about 7/8inch but when I went to install the first frame It was a no go. After a few cuts with a utility knife I got it into place on the all thread rods. I'm trying to make them removable if needed.
The second one went a little better, I didn't follow the 45 angle cuts. I just took my router and went straight into the edge on a 90 degree cut about 3/16th's from the edge. I'll try to post a pic later to show you the difference.

It's Later:

The above pic shows the angle grooves follow the 45.
The below is on a 90.

Hi cold,,,,

I notice you are going uppy downie etc

There is only one thing,, with this way,,,, the lamp deposits especially the yellowsalts sit right in the output line towards the LCD,,

I am still not sure how much affect it has on the colour temp of image yet,,

mind you my lamp is still quite new,, I have reversed the lamp to see,, but heheheh deposits naturally follow gravity,,,

its an interesting point to think about,, so be careful of total commitment to this way..

Cold Steel,
As I have been taking my time reading, reading, and learning I am drawn to your design. It is what I have been wanting to see results from because it is the way I would like to go. With the new pro lens, a straight horizontal design would take up about as much real estate in my living room as a small canoe! Not very appealing to the special woman in my life. I like the way everything will be adjustable. Are you planning on suspending it from the ceiling or mounting it on a base from the floor? (permenant vrs. portable) What kind of LCD panel and light source are you going to put into this thing? Also, on mounting the LCD, do the circuit boards etc. have to be in the lighting area due to reversing using a mirror?
Keep up the good work...'cause I'm learning from ya!

DJH

But don't they revaporize with each use? Even if there's a gravity directed salt gradient (non-homogeneity) within the fully equilibrated and energized (well . . . no arc if it ain't energized) arc wouldn't the light quality be pretty much the same all around the arc periphery?

Thanks DJH , Straight is what I have now in My Plog and as you can see that is how big the pro lens config would be. If you can see it the standard lens is recessed back into the pj box but I had allowed expansion room for the new pro lens. But now I've scrapped this design and going with the vertical box to remove it from the air. I always thought It'd be cool to put airplane wings on it and turn it into a jet fighter projector with fans as the turbines.
I am thinking of mounting it solid to the wall because I shouldn't be having to move it after I once get it all aligned with my screen. I may use a lift up type bracket to mount it. Still not entirely clear on this one yet. My plans seems to change as I go.
I am going to use my Dell 1702fp for now. I will be upgrading to a widescreen lcd tv type later. So my box is bigger than the fresnels 19" X 20". The circuit boards shouldn't be in the lighting area , it should be just a rotation of the lcd. (correct me somebody if I'm wrong).

If your going to put this in a living room area you'll have to have it quite dark. Or use a DaLite screen with viewing angle and put your pj on the floor shining upwards at an angle to match the angle allowed for the screen to be viewed.
I turned a bedroom into a movie theater (xbox 360 too) room.

This is interesting topic. I do see salts in the bottom of the bulb but maybe they are why the bulb is a little dim at startup until the bulb gets hot and vaporizes everything inside it.

If you haven't yet - and it appears you haven't - you'll notice the shake 'n bake salts in the lamp turn into a yellowish-green (like sulfur) fairly uniform, powder-like deposit on the bottom of the arc chamber. They always condense on the bottom to the best of my knowledge. Bottom cools first.

Your avatar and username are among my favorites.

I’ve talked to elken over the phone about this so I’ll give you a second-hand answer. What elken found were some yellowish hues on his screen even after warm up. So it appeared that the salt had somehow stained the arc vessel. He has since rotated his lamp to see if the stains reform.
I don’t think this is a standard fault with all lamps. My HQI for example has a white deposited over most of the arc vessel, not just the bottom. But I have seen this yellow stain on a 150w MH lamp I was using for testing and it was very visible. Someone with an arc welding mask should be able to confirm if there is a stain present while the lamp is on.

DJ

Just did that very thing last night (viewed through welding helmet) to satisfy my curiosity and the yellowish deposits remain even after a 2 hour burn. I have NOT reoriented the bulb after the initial firing nor do I intend to do so. I was kind of surprised they didn't revaporize and would be interested to know if they redeposit after reorienting the lamp.

To state it more clearly the yellowish deposits stay there while the lamp is in a fully equilibrated energized state.

My lamp is the Lumenlab Ushio 400W T15 Pulse Strike and I'm using a coil & core ballast.

been there did that

i rotated lamp 180 degrees,, heheheh they reform, like a mutation..

from what was a clean side to a dirty side..

how ever I cant tell if it really effects the resultant image or not,,

Geez - that old arc acts like a scrub brush and moves the stuff from one place to another. Kind of interesting. I would've guessed they would all vaporize during a burn. I'll have to look again the next time I fire my lamp but I'm certain I could see the deposits there while it was burning. Shoulda' shot me a pic!

mine also has those yellow salts in the bottom so they will reform still on the bottom when moved. I see that you think the picture quality is still going to be good (not noticable to the eye). So I'm still going with the upside down. I think cooling will be much easier too.
Working on my second fresnel frame today for about an hour. I'll get to do more tomorrow being that it's a holiday for me.

Fresnel frame is complete.





Mirror-Adjusment holder complete. It's painted black now. Shows up better unpainted for study for other LL'rs.




I guess light & ballast is next project. The lcd sled will be last, I can't tear my pj apart just yet. I'll miss it to much.

Hi cold

the uside down has a problem

the salt deposites effect the final image only slightly but they do

now proven,, by myself

the design is so good except for that one thing, the salts re-deposit after shutdown,, but are persistant even at full run temp, as a stain looking like material,, posibly may reduce after a 100 hrs or so,, not sure, my old lamp has nowhwere the same amount in chamber, but it had run for about 300 hrs before developing a crack on outer jacket

maybe a smaller hot mirror with lamp offset is way around problem,,, I could do this because of my usage of a 330mm condensor fresnel

will get back with more info shortly, having ARKAY dropping by in next hour...

That's not good, but I can see how an offset lamp would fix the issue. I don't know what the depostits are but if the deposits are metal in nature could a small low power magnet on the end of the bulb or at the base aleviate the problem?

Nope they are the salts not the halides,

and I just had ARKAY over tonight,, we got pizza,, and grrrr i rotated the lamp again 45 degrees,, and whoopie gravity struck soon after fire up,, the salts rolled around into view again,,,,

they are the excess which gives the lamp its life span,, consumed over time or should I say converted to whichever..

well tonight we observed the salts change in shape and position,, and the image got brighter and brighter, as those tides ebbed and flowed etc

I like the upie downie so much,,, my thought is a small hot mirror say about maybe 60mm x whatever and have a side mounted lamp,, ergo let gravity have the grrrrr salts,, but out of the way

now to find a hot mirror...

The culprit:

1 hour runtime- HOT - using welding hood to take picture.





It's cooled off.





150 hours on bulb.

Interesting how different my T15 Pulse Strike deposits look. They are a uniform, powdery, sulfurish-looking coating as opposed to your kind-of-wet-looking shotgun boogers with some background coating. I wonder why the difference? I would've thought it would all be pretty much the same. Perhaps the initial burn may affect things? Eh, I have only two roughly 2 hour burns so far and I ain't changin' my orientation if I can help it!

I think the biggest thing is probably color temp. The PS T15 is a 4000K bulb, while this one is a 5200K bulb... different salts producing different color ?? ... or perhaps different as they are designed to run on different ballast types... S51 vs. M155 (or is it M135??)...

gs

I'm still going with the upside down vertical salts or no salts.
I gotta try it. I can always reverse it if necessary or unsatisfied with the color results of the pj.
thanks for the advice -info. maybe we'll somehow come up with a solution ,CS

Hey, I didn't downsize my fresnels due to an upgrade to my lcd one day. (widescreen) and I am wondering about the extra light that will pass through the fresnels and hit the lcd. Would this cause picture problems?

It I cut the lexan to the size of the lcd and cause the boxcuting of the light with only allowing that light to pass thru the fresnels the size of the lexan would this be better?

Fres size is 16X17 and the lexan cut to match the lcd is 14X11 .

Ordered this fan- loud but I believe it will take care of my cooling. Picture Link

Details open THIS LINK and find the Comair Patriot fan specs.

I have one of those!!!
They are very nice!
I didnt use it,as it was just too big and loud for my box.
But boy,does it move some air!

Picture Update

Box




Norpro Reflector





Overheating problems solved. My other 3 fans are louder.




Cooling Slot

Cold Steel,

I like your up side down vertical folded design, it helps keep the heat away from the lcd.

Very Nice!

Thanks Fulcrum , with the upside down design that's a plus. I am going to run just one of those fans. I will board up the extra hole in case I need it which I'm pretty sure I won't but the hole is there with no sawdust to contend with later. CS

Mogul base soldered to cut down on any chance of being loose.

please verify this:

Going from horizontal to vertical upside down all I should have to do is rotate the lcd 180 degrees and install it in the same side toward the lamp.

light holder-adjuster:

Removed the lcd from the old pj.
Removed the antiglare with water soak method. 11.5 hours. peeled it off carefully. I believe where I used it in the pj for about 200 hours the AG was baked on a little. Every place I quit pulling to check it there was a line of glue left when I started pulling again. After realizing this I just pulled it straight off and no lines after that. see pic below.

I'll verify that this is wrong! You must flip the lcd over and rotate!

Well I finally got my projector to project after a long messed up trial and error ordeal.
I still have the projector in assembly mode. (not finalized).

I am disappointed in the pro lens and overall size of the picture. My old standard setup was much larger. When viewing full screen it's on my screen ( 6ft high) When viewing widescreen it's only about 3.5 feet high.

Is there anyway to make the projected size larger by changing fresnels or moving something closer to the lens or the lens closer to something.

My old setup the widescreen was 5 ft high.

My lens is 11 ft 3 inches from the screen. If I done the calculator right it should have been about 100 inches diagonal.

Any suggestions.

Move your front Fresnel forward closer to the triplet. This adds magnification to the triplet shorting the FL. How much you can do this until the pictures go to poop no one knows. Maybe an inch or two? You will be the first.
You may have to move the lamp slightly closer too. The 550mm 3dlenes Fresnel has finer groves and may be better for this.


Can't you move your PJ back some?

The Buhl style triplets do have a 450mm fl which is a little shorter than the pro lens 500mm It migh be easer to just change triplets. You should be able to get good money for used peo lens.

6 ft=72inch that on your 5:4 ratio LCD would mean 90inch wide

90 w and 72 h means 115" diagonal. I believe 104" is predicted by the focal calculator (20mm split gap and your throw input). So I would say it was very effectivelly predicted. I dont understand your disapointment...

My actual DaLite screen size is 72 X 132.

After setting the pj up correctly with the pj located where it's going to stay put at:

Widescreen 16:9 projected image:

The Diagonal measurement is 87.5 inches
The straight across measurement is 80 inches
The height is 36 inches.

I'll have to get the 5:4 image size when I start up the pj again. I've got to lower the pj down 11 inches to center the projected image to the center of the DaLite screen.

ps.If I've misrepresented my screen size earlier ,I was running on empty (sleep & food& stessed). It was a bad day.

17 inch lcd , LL pro lens kit, non-split fresnels, 135 inches from lens to dalite screen.

My pj is as far back as possible.
I'm looking into getting a 19 inch widescreen lcd or 5:4 . This should take care of the size issue.

thanks guys, CS

Well now it's been a while. Update time.

After being disappointed with screen size I am not anymore. I moved the pj into an adjacent room and just stuck the lens through the wall. I gained 2 feet on the lens to screen.

Also I had problems with a ballast and had to change out with another one. I talked to Kellie in sales and she helped me with the warranty problem. I thank Kellie. LL rocks.

I now ordered a new ballast and new style lamp for a backup. The new ballasts have a 2 year warranty and is American made. w00t

My wife panicked when it went out. The NBA playoffs were on. I've got her hooked on the BIG SCREEN. It took me a long time to persuade her to let me build the pj but I don't have any problems getting anything for the pj any more. After all she is remodeling the theater room.

My picture is much much much brighter with the new pro lens and with the antiglare removed the colors seem to be much more vivid. I take back any misgivings I had about changing things around. The focus is great after I figured out what was causing the difference in focus. One side plain one side fuzzy , corner plain another fuzzy.
It all had to do with the front surface mirror. It's way to thin and flimsy. It needs to be thicker
(Brain - Kellie? hint ,hint)

My mount for the FS mirror I thought was perfectly square and smooth but it may have been off just a few millimeters on one end which easily caused the mirror to warp. I used double sided tape to hold it down but I had to take some of the corners loose because it caused blurr and the keystoning was off. After shimming up certain corners it corrected the keystoning and fixed the slight out of focus corners.
I had the mirror taped down on one corner to pull it tighter to the mount. I believe if the mirror was much thicker it would be much less likely to warp just any direction so easily. I just can't imagine using 2 or more mirrors to fold. Focus would be so hard it seems. Maybe my mount may not be the best in the world but it wasn't that bad I think.

Update over, pics will be in my next post. thanks LL and fellow forum posters.CS

Well I'd like to post some good pics. But I'm struggling with the focus and motion blurr from my camera. It seems I just can't take a great picture anymore. Anyway here is a couple.

Direct TV.






Lion, Witch and Wardrobe.




Game Cube using Vdigi. 480p

Soul Calibur II







StarFox Assault

Wow sounds like you had the same weird focus issues that I had with the fs mirror. There was too much pressure on one side of my fs mirror which cause a double image to appear in my projection. I can't say how many times I took it out held it up againts the lense and saw a focused image then screwed everything back in just to find it out of focus again. Turns out it just neede to be held in loosely even a regular 1/8th thickness rear surface mirror gave a focused image but it was a little too heavy to keep in my setup.

Your images do look good though it's a shame I don't have a vgdi to get the best out of my gamecube but there's always the Nitendo Wii

Good luck with finishing things up.

DM

Thanks DM. The mirror was a problem I got one corner loose and one taped down hard to get the edges straight on the picture.
If you'll notice the gamecube games that output in 720P are in widescreen but the 480P (Starfox & Soul Calibur) is off the 6ft high screen. Notice the black border of the screen.
Also when it's in this format it nips the bottom of my ceiling fan light and causes a shadow. You can see a fan blade shadow and the bulb. It's a 69 inch wide fan with 2 fans. The light has a built in dimmer which helps to see with as little ambient light toward the screen as possible.

I know one thing for sure this pj is much much brighter than my old setup with the standard lens and with the antiglare still attached.

Cold Steel your pics look great and it sounds like your very pleased with the outcome, reading through your post about the FS mirror being the cause of your focusing issue(same info Dark Meat told me about mine) made me change my mind I now I think I will take a closer look at mine, but I really don't believe it's due to pressure because my mirror just slides down into position, we'll see what happens.

RR

ColdSteel,

So would you say that the picture is as crisp as it should be? Or do you still have a little blurriness?

One of the other techinques used by LL members is to move the FS mirror closer to the LCD. The further the mirror is from the LCD, the smaller the image is when reflected. If there is a flaw in the mirror, where the image is reflected, that flaw is enlarged and projected along with the image onto the wall.

By moving the mirror closer to the LCD, the image reflected is bigger, as it will be using a larger surface area of the mirror. Any flaw in the mirror, such as waviness, is less appearant in the final image, as it isn't magnified as much.

This will, however, push your triplet out further, so box and space are considerations.
For more informtion see arrik's plog, page 4, post #73. His pj looked much like yours, and then he modified it to move the mirror closer to his LCD.

Cheers,

Fulcrum