Sim here is a picture of the yellow ring or edge the way it happens for me is the lamp is to far back and can't focus it may be that the 330mm fresnel has a prolblem focusing on the with of the condenser?

Click to view attachment

Well I might have brought the condenser down closer by a 1mm. You mean when unsplit?....sigh, give me some time again to put everything back and get some measurements (bed time). You would think I would have learned by now to have these measurements for you all before putting things back to when they were. BUT!!! I can say for now that the rear edge of the triplet lens is approxiamately 345 to 350mm from the front 317 fresnel in my current split setup.


Thanks arizona, but I'm not using the 330 right now just the 2-317's. I have to cut the 330 to try in the old box. I'm waiting until the new box is ready then I'll slice it. I am intending to try my 5"x12" condenser with the 220 or the 317 but again until the new box is ready for it. Your pic is very similar to mine and like I said when I brought the lightbox closer the yellowing bagan to disappear and got brighter BUT the cone also narrowed.

I need help...I just took apart my new panel and found the ffc ribbon. 10 pins!.....LL's store's smallest ribbon is only 12 pin. So, any ideas as to where I can get a 10 pin? Or how to DIY this. My biggest question is how do I measure the pitch of the ribbon? The width of it is approxiametly 5mm wide.

5mm/10=0.5mm pitch. Just go to the page in the store and at the bottom it says to email brainchild for custom sizes.

DJ

And you can always cut off the extra 2 pins. It's very easy to do.

Sim - Perhaps you could help clarify things for all of us....exactly what is different now in your projector from when you had it working so well before?...

Custom? I wasn't aware of this. Thanx DAZZZ, and thanx for explaining the pitch.


This is exactly what I assumed I could do but wasn't sure. Thanx fellas


Nothing at all Dajyn, well maybe the distances as I mentioned before. You see my old box is all loose now from experimentation, so, the distances between lightbox to sled may be off and distance from sled to triplet. I'm still using the 4.5"x6.5" fl condenser lens, the 317's fresnels and the Dukane 327. For now it's just a ghetto looking box to watch movies on while I work on the new box which will allow me to better experiment with the 5"x12" fl lens with the 220 fresnel. I will definately be replacing the field lens with the 330 though to match the Dukane. I'ts just that when I try the unsplit with the 317's the yellow tinge is unacceptable and I've notice this using the precondenser. Frankly, I find the split better then unsplit when I didn't have the precondenser on for some reason. I'm still going to experiment with unsplit when the new box is built it just means a little more extra shop work.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation SIM. So it sounds like you may be having problems with an unsplit configuration...which is very interesting.

Are you still getting good results with your split set up? Or have things moved around on you too much to tell right now...?

Progress report:

So far, I've completed the threaded rod sled or should I say shelves. The following pics are of the shelves consisting of the lightbox mount shelf, the collimator fresnel shelf and the LCD shelf. They are the painted black portions. This entire part sits on the 'airbox' below it which will direct the flow of air out the rear.

Here are pics of the LCD, collimating fresnel shelves and the air box.

Looking good SIM.
Nice work,very neat and tidy.
Cant wait to see more!
P

Thanks pun15her, I've been really meticulous with this build. Been trying to measure everything even down to half a mm closeness. My biggest worry is not having both fresnels positioned that close and off by 1 to 2. It really does pay off having a table saw, jig and router. I’m still juggling the exterior design on this. As much as I like yours I’d like to keep it unique.

Sim
Your box is looking really good! I thought about using threaded rods in my build for adjustability and I may do that yet. I am a little strapped for cash as I had to use my hardware budget for a new pro reflector. My grnadaughter was playing around in my shop and broke it, not to mention I just bought all those condensers and my fan. Wish I had a money tree! Hehe

Thanks ChuckL and I hear ya. I must have gone thru 6 to 7 different reflectors ranging from a chrome plated salad bowl, a tea kettle to stainless steel spoons and ladles including 2 pro reflectors. Lumber of different sizes mostly pine because of mistakes, several sheets of lexan, 2 experimental LCD panels just for the A/G experiment alone and one currently used and last but not least 4 precondenser lens which was just for the first build. I'm afraid to add everything up cause I know every little expense I had put into this could end up just paying for a commerical. But of course because of the addiction I keep trucking along. So, don't feel to bad that your granddaughter got to your reflector, I'm sure her accident was strictly innocent compared to something like my smart move with my first pro reflector - buffing out the reflective part like an idiot

Sim if you still have your old clear pro reflector, can you try to cut it? Maybe a small masonry tile cutting blade or a diamond blade if you have access to one. If it can be cut you may be able to use sections of another reflector instead of your stainless steal outer reflector.

DJ

You know there has been something I've been contemplating about with regards to the reflector when using the a condenser. It seems we always refer to the lens as just magnifying the arc for the panel. We seem to be indicating the reflector just helps make the arc brighter. As you mentioned in your thread DAZZZ, you suspect that bringing the bulb closer to the reflector may be beneficial when using a precondenser just as I saw in my tests. arizonavideo's test of his halfed parabolic with his bulb sitting closer to the back seems to be working for him. Well, what if the reflector is not spherical or shaped round and more or less elongated with the Ushio and it's arc? What comes to mind is something that Mark had pictured in his diffused light engine thread. Again, I'll have to research this but please provide your thoughts on this because I'm thinking of a not so conventional reflector in mind.

That Idea was dismissed by R** when I recommended it a long time ago by saying you could move the reflector closer and direct the light from the reflector straight toward the fresnel or condenser they said that this creates two focal points and both can't be in focus at the same time which is true but the difference in focal points becomes less the closer the two points are and the light system is 50% out of focus at the screen any how Another way to look at it is you really have two lamp images one from the lamp and one from the reflector so the condenser sees two light sources. You can overlay them side by side or on top of each other if the triplet is not 100% full from the lamp itself then you can move the reflector closer and it's image will fill the triplet and because it intersects more of the lamp arc it is brighter

The triplet should be filled with both lamp arc images equally but if your condenser had too long of a FL then that image could be too small to fill the triplet 100% but you could still fill the triplet with the reflected image.

With other shaped reflectors like a parabolic the focal point of the lamp image is always longer so you have two focal points again. The main concern then becomes arc encasement and the power dispersion to the Fresnel and reflector size.

hey Sim.... you mentioned the 6500k bulb looked "yellowish" to you when you fired it up...were you running it vertical or horizontal? I've got mine mounted vertical llike in your lightbox and have started getting some flickering....well, more like pulsing...the white image(my test image) on the projection gets kind of orangeish/yellowish then back to white, maybe once a second or two? at first I thought it was because my lcd was getting too hot so I stcuk a small 60mm fan on the lcd directly and its cool to the touch now but still getting the pulsing...that wasn't happening whne I had it horizontal... I'm about ready to flip the whole pj to its vertical orientation, so the bulb will be horizontal again(in its relation to ummmm... the earth? , I'll let you know if it goes away but was curious if when you tested yours what position it was in, its supposedly a universal burn bulb

Did a raw mock test of my projection once I had completed the interior shelf sled. Used the 330, 220mm fresnels unsplit with about 25mm gap between them. No panel in place and I used the 4 5/8" and 5" precondensers @ 12" fl. It was raw but I was glad it looked pretty good. The image is about 9 feet lengthwise. My 220 is pretty beaten since I first bought it. So,......Anyone out there willing to sell their 220mm fresnel thats in good to great condition, please pm me. ANYONE!

Sim
Is that the Jaegers condenser from Surplus Shed? Did you get any lux measurments? Just curious as to which lens that is as I am about to do the build on the light engine, Already mounted the 4.5 @ 6 in it's grill mount but if the Jaegers yeilds better results with a 220 then I will redo the front panel of the light engine. Look pretty good from the pics!
ChuckL

It's either of the two 4 5/8" x 12"fl and Jaegers 5"x 12"fl. The 4.5"x 6.5"fl will not work with the 220mm fresnel. I'm still experimenting with the larger lens to incorporate the 220. And so far I'm liking it, of course this is without any LCD in place. No lux measurements as yet.

I will be looking forward to your results! How did you mount that lens? I have a 5 x 12fl and not sure how to mount it.

So here's the sled/shelf innerts about 95% done. As you can see the new lightbox is in place and brought up to accomodate the 220 fresnel with the larger precondenser lens which I'm still testing with. I'm hoping that the height slack may allow me to fit in a 18" opaque lens with 550 fresnel if I desire. Right now I'm uitlizing the 327mm Dukane. Next, I'll start with the shell and the panel. A serious labor of luv so far.

Heres some pics of the fs mirror and triplet mount. Used and hacked a pair of drawer sliders. Had to cut the fs mirror myself...scary...something I don't want to do again. Also cut the 330 fresnel, also scary.

And here's another shot of the projection using one of the larger precondenser lens with the 220 and 330 fresy's, just not sure which one was it (condenser lens that is). May have to lower the lens further to the bulb and experiment with which lens is better. Plus I plan to see how the 317mm collimating fresnel works in all this.

The build so far is working quite well which is big step in precise measuring and building compared to my last build.

You have a work of art going on there! Looks like a very complex build but you will be able to do a lot of experimentation with it. Very impressive Sim. Fine work!

I was wondering what she looked like!!
Very nice,SIM! Extremeley well put together and
Nicely engineered. Congrats!
P

Looking good so far. Just wondering what your distances are. My spread sheet, using rough guesstimats, comes up as: fresnel to Plano= 154mm and the Plano to arc =25mm. Using the 5” pre-condenser. Are these values close?

DJ

Really close, just by playing around with the cone I measured collimating board to lightbox board about 155mm then I noticed I had to bring down the 5"x12"fl condenser lens closer to the bulb to really get all corners lit so I know it will be closer than it was before when using the 317's and the 4.5"x 6.5"fl condenser, whether it will be safe for the glass lens we will see. Thanks DAZZ, for coming up with some numbers at least now by my eyeballing it came up close. BTW, where did you get your pyrex lens?

My Pyrex lens came from a profile spot stage light (Berky Colortran Mini Ellipse). I’ve found this site that sell spares but they haven’t replied to my emails maybe you might have better luck. They seem to have a few different FLs to choose from but they don’t say if they are Pyrex. But if I had to guess I’d say they were being that they are used with high powered lamps.
I would like to try out the 6”* 12” FL. The only prob with it though would be I would need a much larger reflector than the pro. It should give me a theoretical light collection angle of 148°, currently I’m getting 108°. Where a standard 220mm FL fresnel with no pre-condenser is only 88°. If you were to use this lens the arc should be at 23mm from the Plano side so it would be 1mm from your outer glass envelope. That may be a little to close as it doesn’t give you any distance to adjust for error. You would also need a reflector that can cover the 148° plus a bit extra for the actual arc length. Some ware about 160° coverage. Using the 160° reflector and the 148° pre-condenser you would be collecting a lot of the available light, 308° collected and 52° waste. Of coarse there will be losses from reflection from the steep angle on the pre-condenser but still not a bad effort. These collection angles are why I believe that the 575W MH Dukane OHP is able to get such a high ANSI Lumens rating. The only thing that may not work with this set-up is the possibility of dark corners because of the 220mmFL fresnel. A 330 with a different pre-condenser but still using the same collection angle may be a better approach. So there is something for you to test, see if your current 220mm fresnel and pre-condenser has darker corners than the previous 330mm fresnel plus pre-condenser.

DJ

Ok, as much as I'd like to seperate testing of precondensers with my current build I may duplicate some pics in both here and in my precondenser thread as well. Anyways, heres a comparison of the 220 fresnel with the 5"x12"fl condenser lens and then the 317 with the 4.5"x6.5"fl lens. I really like the spread better with the 317 with the 4.5". The 220 with the other 4 5/8" and 5" lens were brighter but mostly at the center (hotspotting) but the eveness is alot better with the 317 & 4.5". Not to mention heat issues, having now a vertical build heat is higher when getting closer to the fresnels. When viewing the 2 pics notice the center hotspot. It's wider when using the 317 & 4.5".

Here are some pics of my corners using the 317 and 4.5" lens. These were taken off my window blinds which are past the screen. I'll take some test shots when on screen once I put my rig back together again. I currently have it dismantled for a little modification and some painting of the lightbox.

Thanks for posting so many detailed results. Since I'm using just the regular triplet would you still suggest the 4.5" conenser with the 220 rear fresnel? The condenser that I ordered has a 4.5" diameter and a 6.5" fl. Any advice on a condenser to fresnel distance? I'm just looking for maybe a 10-15% increase in brightness.

As far as using the 4.5" I really suggest using the 317mm or a 330mm fresnel. You will get a tunnel like image using the 220. The distances between is still being worked on, but Dajyn posted some distances at my other thread for the 317 and 4.5". BTW Dark, is your bulb still parallel with your panel, I know your using the 250w and although I know you wouldn't want to screw with the current setup you have now but I would bet you will achieve an additional 20% more light if your bulb were perpendicular.

Here's the back of triplet, new image with a better spread plus I cleaned the fresnels and a corner shot on screen.

Hey Sim
Looks good, Think I will stick with the 4.5 + 317 in my build. Just seems to work better. The spread is definatly better with this combo and I don't want to worry about the heat either.

Nice Job

BTW got a bid on a CIE light meter so i will see by tomorrow this time.

Darkmeat, I measured the distances: 10mm from plano side of 4.5" x 6.5"fl precondenser lens to bulb and exactly 200mm between plano to the rear of the 317mm collimating fresnel. And once again my front collector fresnel is 330mm folded to a Dukane 327mm fl triplet. Lamp of course perpendicular for a 15" LCD panel.

Excellent Chuck, I realize you also have the Jaegers 5" x 12"fl, if you still would like to experiment and get this to work better then I'd be very interested. Sad that I have bought these 2 others (4 5/8" and 5") and I'm settling with what I started in the first place. Very bright but at the center but not a satisfying spread in my taste. Looking forward to your readings with your new meter.

Ok, this is going to hurt. Seems I lost a bit more lumens going vertical. DAZZ informed me that a folded build would loose about 6%. I lost about 20%. I measured 129 ANSI compared to my best of 186. I don't understand how this could have happened but I'm suspecting that the bulb works brighter when vertical pointing up and when positioned towards the fresnels perpendicularly producing the even spread of light with the use of the precondenser. I may need A/V's help as far as determining if this is the case.

I experimented with the sled/shelf by laying it down on it's side with the fold and I did gain some back but after elliminating the fs mirror the measurements jumped even more. Now, I'm considering scraping the folded design and just go straight shooting. Sigh , decisions, decisions. I'll have to hash this out a bit more. One things for sure though if I do go straight then I might as well uitilize the 18" opaque with the 550 fres. and just go for maximum bightness, this and of course using mikyd's T15 bulb. This may be better by setting the box back and mostly out of site behind the audience. The only problem is now it's going to have be a bigger box. :angry:

Something I just thought of. See if you can get a lux reading in front of the mirror and behind. Then see if that correlates to your loss in lumens.

DJ

Ok, I positioned the box vertically again when I took this. Up close to the mirror about 818 and about the same distance without the mirror about 824. This is the best I could do DAZZ.

sim,,,, is your mirror pre or post triplet?

would be interesting to see diff in measurements

pre mirror. Yes, it would be interesting if I built it as a straight shoot then fold with a mirror. Hmmm, interesting. Still, I've left a post at A/V's thread if he could experiment with the difference of a vertical positioned bulb compared to horizontal even with perpendicular to fresnels. I hope he can assist.

Sim this week I will have a FS mirror and a Pro reflector,,

been consulting with Dazz by phone about getting a precondensor lens etc,, then I am gonna use it my uppy vert unit,,,

Oh PS,, interesting with arc bowing up,, I have a damm fine spread of light,, and that with NO reflector,, even with full 1280 wide display

It doesn’t look like your loosing 20% from the mirror with those values. Maybe it is the lamp position. You could always put a mirror in-between the pre-condenser and fresnel if you really wanted a vertical projector.

DJ

True, but then wouldn't that would be doubling fold thereby also doubling the 6% to 12% loss? It's really looking like a trade off going vertical.

The 6% loss is just an estimate going by your measurements you are only loosing about 1% if my maths is correct.

I went back and had a look at your original measurements on your other thread and they are only about 1% difference from vertical to horizontal lamp orientation. So there has to be something else we are overlooking. Is your pre-condenser turning yellow again?

DJ

edit:
And you should check you battery in you lux meter.

Yup, I know what you mean. I really like the spread so far on mine, but the loss lumens , really discouraging. I think my mindset is on really squeezing every bit of light from 400w's and dam how the design looks.

Elken, I've been thinking about along the lines of making the LCD panel more transmissive. I've researched on what I believe is called negative transmissive polarizer. With your optics understanding and the work we we have done with antiglare removal would having a negative polar behind the manufacturer's LCD front polar make a difference? This may be a question that should be asked in the MOTHAH THREAD

I assume you are loosing 50 ANSI lumens. Are the majority of lost lumens from the corners or from the whole screen?

DJ

Hehe, changed just a 3 days ago. Hmmm, 1%? I could live with that. Well, the precondenser has turn a little yellow but not so much. The image I'm getting on screen is bright white. I'll hash this out a little more before I decide a drastic turn of design then.