I'm beginning to wonder if the exterior paint of the house was semi gloss or eggshell that would account for the camera picking up such brillance.

How on earth are you able to get such a high quality picture with that big of a projection? This is amazing, I'm gonna re-read through this thread and copy whatever it was you did.

I think sim was saying that the camera made it look too bright. It does look great though.

Impressive Sim and I'm not saying that just because I'm jealous or anything . It's pretty smar what you did to bring down the front side of the PJ going for a cone shape well cone slash pyramid look. What shocks me is that earlier you said the fresnels were placed behind the lcd but there doesn't seem to be any probles with keystoning in your image.

Ha!
That is ridiculous!!!!
Awesome stuff SIM.
You have put alot of work into your pj,and the forums generally.
It is nice to see you are getting alot out of it too!!
P

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I come and live in your basement? I'm throwing away all my projector stuff and can move in right away. I'll wash dishes, clean toilets, I do windows, I just want access to your projector.

Holy cow!!!!!!!!

That is downright amazing!!! I don't care how bright the camera makes it look!

Can I grab one of those wall shots and do a range of brightness adjustments on it and send 'em back to you so you can tell me which one most closely matches what you feel you were really seeing? Or can you do that for us?

Totally floored by that Sim. Totally floored!!!

After all your hard work you deserve that though!

I second that! OMFG!
I am really likin that. Shoot! If my house wasnt natural wood, I would have to haul mine outside to get a pathetic comparison shot.

Well done!

SJ

Crisp and clear it shows
Towering above the plants
Dude? Is that your house?!

heheheheee

And this is just with 275 ANSI's, I think DAZZ and his Osram hitting 400's will look much better, or arizonavideo and his 1200w . This would be great if I was planning a evening out in the backyard and barbequeing but I still think I need an additional 100 ANSI's for that pop. Like I said it is viewable and not hard to see but I'd really like to have that pop.

DAZZ, with your 400 pj I'd really like to see what this looks like outside your house as well.

Grab away Durachko, I'm not good at modding pics and I definately don't want others to get the wrong impression.

Sim
Truly astounding! Wonder what your neighbors thought if they had seen it on the side of your house ? Take some lux on it just for fun.

Using PhotoShop I reduced the brightness level of your pic in intervals of "20". Original on top, -20, -40, . . ., -100. FWIW. Which one most closely resembles what you feel you were seeing on your house?

Technically, I can't explain precisely what was done by the software, but you can see by the included histogram of the original and -100 pic that it simply slides the levels downward. I infer each pixel is assigned a color and brightness level and decreasing the brightness simply subtracts some fixed value across the boards for each pixel.

Edit: I assume I did but perhaps I didn't even hit a dim enough level?

Edit 2: You likely posted the info but it appears from at least one pic the shutter speed is fairly slow since you look blurred in it. If someone wants to correct me in the way I've done this please do! I wonder how best to standardize pics? My "pseudo-screenies" in my plog were too dim for my taste and yours are too bright for your taste. Hmmmm . . .

Still, it'll be interesting to hear what you have to say about what I've just posted.

Again, I'm in awe!!!

Edit 3: How'd I miss that finger pic where you said the brightness was about right!?!? Silly me. That's a good indicator. Nice work that!

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Great job Durachko, yes the last 3 looks very similar to the amount of brightness I saw but not extremely dark in the black areas where you can't see some details. Thanks, I definately don't want others to mistake what the camera picked up compared to what I saw last night.

Hi SIMUL8R,

Do you have a rough diagram of your light box ?

can you draw one up real quick. Doesn't have to be fancy.

I would like to see intake, exhaust mainly. dimentions will be good.

I saw your pics on first page.

thx
fw

Generally, the reflector is the only thing that I centered on the lightbox and the adjustments is only up and down for different reflectors I've used in the past and to get it close or further from the bulb.

The bulb mount is very much adjustable in case I wanted to try different types and not all of them are structured the same in size and the location of it's arc (arcs are either bigger or in different sides within the bulb enclosure), so, in this case the center of mikyd's bulb was further in compared to the s400dd. The mount was adjustable every which way as in up, down, back, forward, left and right. Your just centering the bulb's arc in center of the reflector. Same goes with the precondenser, centered within the reflector and the arc. The fan is just placed on the opposite side of where the bulb mount is located. And the opening for the air to go into the lightbox was on top directly over the bulb mount side. The precondenser's hole was also an opening for air to enter the lightbox but this hole directs the air to go over the lens and around it's edges to cool it down. The hole over the bulb mount allows more air to pass between the lens and the area of the arc and also not suffocate the fan as well.

The first reflector I used was the 4” ladle with the pro reflector set into it. I’ve changed this to just a 5” ladle without the pro because the pro could not sit properly inside the 5” ladle (I wished I could have because it would of added more to my lumens).

The lightbox itself is one unit that is adjustable within the pj itself as well. When tweaking you will find yourself moving the box either up, down or left and right just to center it within your triplet, assuming your fresnels are centered as well.

The exhaust/fan is just mounted outside the box unless you can fit it within.

Can you clarify this please. Do you mean using a 220mm back fl fresnel with a 12inch FL glass condenser? And how were the results? Where do I get this 5 inch diameter condenser?

Where did you get the Jaegers 5"x 12"fl from?

Yes, Dajyn states that the 4 5/8" and the 5" x 12"fl will work with the 220mm fres although I will try with the 317 or the 330 just for comparison. My reflector was smaller at the time @ 4" so the 4 5/8" and the 5" condensers didn't work well with it. Arizonavideo suggested I enlarge the reflector which I did with a 5" ladle and it works great with the 4.5"x6.5"fl condenser. Now since the reflector is larger I can now try the 4 5/8" or the 5" with a 220. This may increase brightness since I'm now bringing the lightbox closer to the fresnels. Just something I'll be again testing with some time in the future. My goal is 400 lumes.

All my lenses were gotten from Surplus Shed. Just do a search for precodensers or condensers there and you'll find them unless they sold out. The 4 5/8"x 12"fl was not abundant as the 4.5"x 6.5"fl.

Thanks. I unfortunately already ordered a 220mm back fresnel from 3dlens so i think the logical next choice should be a 5 x 12 condenser based on what your saying. Also acording to the inverse square law of light if you switch to a 220mm fresnel and all other things being equal you will increase your light by at least double. At 165mm it would be 4 times.
Do you think the 12 inch condenser will spread the light well enough to fill the 400mm wide fresnel at i guess 200mm or so?

So if i get the pyrex version at altman how close can i place it without worry?

We both will have to see. I saw the brightness when using LLab's 220 size fresnel but there was some obvious corner dimming and again thats when I had the 4" ladle. Let us know what you find if you have the chance. BTW, I checked SurplusShed and they didn't have the 5"x 12"fl lens but they do have the 4 5/8" x 12"fl: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3539.html They are also giving huge discounts radomly right now so check it out. Good luck.

As far as the pyrex, pm DAZZLA and he'll give you the scoop on the distance from his to his OSRAM bulb he's using. Seems to be a brighter bulb.

Keep in mind that 400 ANSI is with a bit of extrapolation, I used 8% as the LCD transmittance. I have no idea as to what the transmittance of my panel actually is.

The side of the house shot is going to be a problem for me, I can’t afford a double story mansion like yours . I’ve been trying to think of some place all day that I could project a big image onto, nothing comes to mind yet. I wonder if my neighbour will let me paint his brick wall white .

DJ

Oh my... that pic with you standing next to leelo is just too funny... I think she'd top out at 12-13 ft tall if she could walk off the screen !! Great demonstration of how big an image you can really get out of a well made LL PJ.

In answer to your question above... unless you are in full manual mode (setting f/stops, shutter speeds and ISO) you are at the mercy of how the exposure program in your camera interprets what it see's... since this depends on things like focal length (which varies when you zoom), and which program is being used (action programs, night programs, flash programs, macro programs, etc...) the results of using different variables such as these might outweigh any exposure compensation you might be trying to give it. So you really can't just apply the same compensation outside that you did inside because the camera may be interpreting these two area's completely differently, therefore you will need to find an exposure compensation that works for each camera setup. Even just modifying the zoom (wide pan shot, vs. a closeup) may effect the way the camera program determines exposure, and render your EV adjustment meaningless. The best interpretation is such as what Durachko did... just pick about where you thought the brightness measured... Did you happen to take some lux readings ?? (maybe I missed them)

gs

ps. installed my WUXGA panel last night... oh my... goodness. i never thought that the resolution on a PJ could get so high that I would have a hard time seeing icons and writing on a 128" screen !!

Using a digtal camera as proof of any thing is kind of silly. If anything a quick trip to photo shop for a brightness adjustment to show us how it looks to you is OK for me. You do have a LUX meter so It will be way better for LUX readings.

Is it safe to say that most people will be happy with a PJ image at 100 LUX?

I could have taken some readings but it would have only been as far as I could reach. I just didn't think of it at the time. Who knows, I may try this again in the future.

Yeah, yeah. Keep rubbin' it in! :angry:

Maybe the fire department could send out the hook 'n ladder crew next time you project outside?

lol ok, now you guys are just playin with me.

I'll see what I can do, I may have to jump for the other 3

Hi Simul8r,

So what do I need to do to use the pre-condenser with 220 mm rear fresnel (LL) ?

thx

hey Sim, does your plano surface of the condenser sit at the level of the aluminum plate or is it raised above it? if so how much, can't be much though if you're only 5mm from the bulb I guess....

The precondensers I plan to use with the 220mm rear fresnel are the 4 5/8"x12"fl and/or the 5"x12"fl I bought from SShed. The 4.5"x6.5"fl will not work well with the 220mm, corners were obviously clipped.

I've checked SShed just recently and they have the 4 5/8" http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3539.html . I did not find the 5". Mounting these larger precondensers is my issue since they are bigger than the 4.5" so I'd have to come up with something creative. The 120mm fan grills will work but it will be an obstruction on the lens. I'm pondering what would be wide enough for the len's width that does not consist of carving it out of wood.

Oh Man !!

I just received three of them.

I guess I will have to get a new one..

No, at first if was above and quite far. I started moving it down when the condenser gurus came on board my thread. Currently, it's now mounted underneath the plate (plano side that is). The hardest part is measuring the distance between the precondenser and the arc and not the bulb. Beleive me, everthing from the center of the arc to the edge of it's chamber to it's outer glass enclosure to the edge of the plate was more or less measured by eye, a metric ruler and a dial caliper. Then after tightening all the screws and springs, I would stick a thin sheet of cardboard between the edge of the precondenser and the plate and mark where the plano side was to the edge of the bulb then measure it with the ruler. So the 5mm to 6mm could be more or less I would guess.

You have a choice FWilley. Currently, my 275 ANSI is by using the 4.5" and 317mm rear standard fresnel from LLab with very even corners. If you want to experiment, like I will with the 4 5/8" and the 220 then get yourself the lens from SShed. Again, the hardest part is trying to figure a way to mount them. With the 4.5" the 120mm fan grill was perfect.

Check out this link. There are some interesting pics of lightbox for mounting of precondensor.

http://www.allinbox.com/resume/resume.htm


Regards,
Traynor

Sim could you so me a favour and place your projector about 10' away from your wall I'm interested in the size that your 4:3 and 16:9 image comes out to. If I stick with the vertical build the polarizer layer will be facing my triplet and based on the test that I've done this side isn't as bright compared to the back layer facing the triplet.
Also what was the final lenght that your enclosure came out to?

With the lens sitting back about 10'8" from the screen I have a 57"x74" semi trapezoid projection and thats 4:3. At 16:9, I'm guessing 48"x74" again same distance.

Dimensions of the box is 42 1/2" long, 19 1/2" high and 18" wide. She's big because I used the original ribs and frames when I was planning a vertical. If your not comfortable with removing your antiglare then you can polish it using Mother's Mag Polish. Not totally the same as removal but will provide you some improvements.

Thanks Traynor, I actually saw some pics similar to the channel mount previously. I was afraid the channels may be in the way but I can see it would be an easy mount. I was thinking of placing the channels on the upper and lower of the condenser and not left and right of it. It seems the top and bottom portion of the lightcone after the condenser is useless, so, it would probably be best to channel it from these sides.

Well the AG layer has been gone thats why I mentioned the polarizer layer was smudged. I managed to clean it up a bit with my wifes eyeglass cloth and fluid. And yes man thats pretty damn big my enclosure right now is 16" wide, 20" high and 14" length, I used threaded rods to give me the extra height, i figure I can still use the box for the horizontal build but I'm going to try and trim it down if I can.

The size of your image is just what I'm trying to get down to smaller and brighter from a longer viewing distance.

Any idea why my 250 watt would look brighter with its center being 7" away from the fresnel instead of the regular 8.5" It used to be at the recomended distance but when I try it now it's duller not sure if its due to my fresnels being a bit dirty (understatement).

Might be that your fresnels are not centered with each other and are quite off. As well as your arc not centered with your fresnels. In other words while you were experimenting something became misaligned. Even your reflector could have been cocked off and pointing more to the side. Or the bulb as well is cocked in an angle. If everything was on the same plain of each other as well as the triplet then you have optimized the light path. What I found was that keeping the lcd close to the fresnels was brighter as opposed to a wider gap but you then see fresnel rings on projection.

Best I can do DMeat based on what your describing.

Thanks for the input I did notice that the fresnels weren't perfectly cut but I managed to get them aligned but the bub is tilting slightly so I'll sort that out later today.

Hey SIm....I forgot to mention(I think) that my bulb has quit flickering/pulsing...must just need to break in really well..have seen a single pulse a couple of times like you said but very rarely..... cutting the ladle today, will be intersting to measure the diff between that and the pro reflector....

Yeah, I notice my bulb is also calming down too. Interesting how a change of attitude these arc's attain given some time and a few burn ins.

Looking forward to your latest test's with the ladle. Just a couple of advise thrown your way if you don't mind.
1) Careful while using the dremel and your hand. Yoshuaspawn had a bad mishap with his knuckles getting in the way .
2) Careful while using the dremel on the ladle. After cutting 4 of them I've wrestled with the dremel from kicking about and wondering off. Hope you don't mar up the interior part of the ladle by accident.
3) Just be careful .

Let's not forget that the pro reflector is a great product from LLab and I wish I could use it with the 5" ladle I have. Just a plug in case anybody is wondering.

yes, being very careful, especially to not heat the metal too much and turn it that bluey color metal gets sometimes.... I don't think it will look as well done as your pic, but it should suffice, but I found it at a store near here for 10$ so....
Hey sim..... I know you want to get the build finished, but at some poinbt, don't forget to try a light measurement with the LCD removed from the box...really interested in your transmission value sincve you removed all those films..... as soon as I get the ladle mounted I will do the same and we can start the "new" standard "LCD Free" build measurements

hey Sim.... how far from your rear fresnel(550 FL right?) to the rear of your triplet?

Sorry mikyd, I'm on personal leave right now, can't provide measurements until I get back in about 12 days.

On another note, it seems your making excellent progress in your test's. I'm looking foward to your goals and expectations. More power to you bud!
sim

Simul8r,

I found this informative optics website, Edmund Optics. This site also lists the different kinds of lens materials and their max temps, under "Glass Specifications" including Pyrex at 490 deg C. Interestingly enough several other glass materials have a higher max temperatures than pyrex. This site also lists the transmission curves for the diffent glass materials.

Fulcrum

thats cool, hope everything is alright.... and on another note I broke down and ordered a couple more SS condensers I should have my big beseler by next weekend.... right now I'm thinking that having the rear of the triplet at the focal length of the front fresnel is best ala Supra..before I had it placed so the center of the triplet was at the focal length, or with the front fresnel within 20mm or less of the lcd..its now about 4" away....

Yes there are certainly other types of glass that are more heat resistant, but keep in mind, they are harder to manufacture and therefore more expensive... sometimes prohibitively so... I think most people look for pyrex as the prices tend not to be astronomical... just my 2 cents.

just and example, I believe most of the MH bulbs have outer jackets made of quartz glass...

gs

yeah, now if I could find out what exactly "white plate" glass thats used in an altman lens is... I've seen it referred to as "tempered crown(white plate) glass " (from an altman brochure) and also on the net as "white plate glass(aluminosilicate glass)" and aluminosilicate glass is a high temp glass like pyrex, and is supposedly more transparent than pyrex, used in telescope corrector lenses...but there again, references are confusing
and the white plate lens from altman is 5$ cheaper than their pyrex version of the same lens...

You need to look at the thermal expansion of the glass. It may be able to withstand the heat but only when it is controlled heat. Heat like in our projectors varies greatly from the front to back of the lens, even the edges of the lens tend to be a different temperature than the centre. If the glass has a high thermal expansion then the stresses to the different parts of the lens make it crack.

DJ

Dazzz,

Since you brought this up i'll share my crazy idea... something i've been thinking about for a while, just haven't found the correct materials.

basically, an expolsion proof enclosure. totally enclosed, no cooling... except for convention cooling... perhaps requiring drilling holes in the top to let hot air out... "box" to be made of alumium (or aluminium as they say in your part of the world ) pro reflector mounted on the inside of box. condenser lens mounted inside the box... plano side coated with hot mirror coating. (or hot mirror mounted inside box with condenser mounted just outside of box). LCD cooling circuit as normal, which will draw air over the "shell" of the aluminum lightbox creating the necessary cooling for LCD and wood enclosure, but not to the bulb itself.

crazy ? impractical ? ... to me the more I read peoples results, the more I think this might actually work. My feeling is that getting a hot mirror made of high temperature material will be easier (cheaper) than trying to find a condenser of the same. I know SS carries hot mirrors, but they are small (2x2"), but just the right price for testing. i've ordered an HQI-TS lamp with OD of 31mm... hopefully this will be small enough to be able to use a 2" sq. piece of hot mirror...

gs