The entire screen. Here is a measurement I took placing my old panel in for a look see.

34 43 40
42 54 46
35 40 37

Avg. 41.22 @ 3.13sq/m = 129.03

Oops, the 1% difference was with no pre-condenser. With the pre-condenser it was 10.8%. So there still is that possibility.

DJ

Well, how bout this....how are you and the misses enjoying your new test box regardless of how it looks

We both absolutely love it. Hooked the PC up to it last night and tweaked the video settings, what a difference in quality. We also had some friends over for a barbeque and they have had a commercial projector for a couple of years and the first words that the wife said was, “Honey that’s better than ours, you could make one of those”.

I still haven’t been able to take meaningful lux measurements yet. The PVA LCD is making things tricky. I did a quick test between movies but the value was almost ridiculous, 68.8 ANSI lumens. Not that great but I think that the video driver is interfering with the maximum settings.

DJ

Going by those values the centre of the screen is 47.9% brighter than the corners. Going to your old measurement of just the light engine alone, no fresnels, horizontal with pre-condenser the centre is 21% brighter and vertical with pre-condenser the centre is 6.3% dimmer.
Have a play around with your distances. See if you can see either a blue tinge around the edges of the screen or a yellow tinge. Without the LCD in place.

DJ

Dazz wait for MCE2005 with Nvidai pure video,, will be on ya doorstep sooner than later

Some lamps make more light in the base up or down position. I have been spending some staring directly at lamp arc's to see what they are doing and this may explain the shorter life for horizontal mounting.
I was doing a lux reading last night with a lamp horizontal. Looking at the arc it was running across the top of the arc tube I think this may reduce the output some. [It wasn't doing that in the vertical]

Venture list some of there lamps with different lumens output for different positions.

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsDataSh...alide/57540.pdf

That looks likes some real loss right there with horizontal mounting.

Try to take a LUX reading of the roof and let see if the lux goes up.[this should make your lamp vertical]

The thing we think of [you could just turn it on its side too.] make sure nothing is loose!

The triplet did look to have more spillage on one side just slightly. So a slight adjustment of the lamp might help.

I think the vertical lamp lux improvement is greater with a long arc than a short arc[I got a large inprovement] because there is a much greater difference in arc lengenth A 27mm arc is almost square so the long end is not far away from the focus point. But with an 80mm arc this distance is real.
Also the arc and lamp may well make more light in the vertical position.

Sounds like we need to do a test to find out.

P>S> When looking at lamp arc’s I always ware a full arc welding helmet.

Interesting, that’s almost the same % as Sims measurements. But I would have thought that the life would be better horizontal as the top electrode wouldn’t get the brunt of the heat.

Daz you are right,, i have researched this fully,, and all the manufacturers

say exactly that,, also logic prevails too


hehehe Heat rises,, so therefore the upper section gets the hottest

but the question really is]

WHY does heat rise,,, ?????

The lamp I had that melted had the arc running up the side of the tube, it over heated where the arc ran. When everything is right the arc is right in the middle so the heat is even all around, so this spreads out the metals and stuf evenly.

Here you go Clive:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11012

Well, heres the deal, since we all know the arc curves upwards this will not satisfy the true readings if we turn the entire unit on it's side. I was so sure that the arc would be brighter horizontal, pointing up and still have the length of it perpendicular to the rear fresnel but now I'm beginning to beleive that the brightess part of the arc occurs at either end of the electrodes when it is vertically pointing up or down as you have pointed out at that site. BTW, it seems we may still have a point source if this indeed were true, imagine the brightess point just at either end of an electrode. What do think would happen if we center this part to our fresnel? More test?

Trust me, I absolutely made sure that the spillage was centered into the triplet but I will still play with the design and make any adjustments in distances maybe there is something that I may have missed. I would appreciate any discoveries you may find.

what %. All I got from that link was a page, what numbers were you looking at DAZZ?

First line of the spec sheet.
Light output(Lumens @ 100 Hrs) 36000Vertical/ 32400Horizontal
= 11.1% increase

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsDataSh...alide/57540.pdf

I can't remember the numbers right off hand Sim, but when I turned my PJ vertical(after building it horizontallly and playing with it without the mirror in it) and the bulb(the 6500K) was back to being horizontal again(in relation to the floor) 20% sounds about right...but the 6500K bulb had started flickering(more like pulsing) the longer I had it vertical(again in relation to the floor) but that went away once it was horizontal again....its set up the same as yours ie, perpendicular to the panel, arc paralle to the short axis of the lcd...my spread is about the same as it was with the arc parallel to long axis though(about 40% vignetting) so I'm not seeing any better spread due to changing the bulb orientation.....just got both my my pcs running after a massive virus attack(had to finally repartition ,reformat and install on both)so I will try to get some numbers the next few days

Thanks mikyd for the post. About your 6500k bulb, is your projection white or off white? A pic would be also nice. And sorry to hear about your pc. I know I have some viruses quarantined and I'll be reformatting very soon as well.

seems to be pretty white, but then the 4000K bulb did too until I played the same thing on the pj and tv at the same time, then the 4000K was noticeably yellow.... when I had the bulb running vertically (to the floor) and I was getting that pulsing, the color of the white screen projection got noticeably yellow-orange
I'll try for some pics this week, but its about as cheap a digital(and 3 years old at that) as you can get so I've had a hard time trying to get scrren shots...

It looks like the lamps become less efficient when horizontal. The flickering may be able to be fixed by increasing the power to the lamp [see over clocking the lamp] I wonder if all the lamps make less light in the horizontal or if some are not affected.

I can move the lamps when running with my test setup if the power changes the current and voltage will change and I can measure it.

A test is needed

Ok, I've revamped going horizontal using the 550mm fres and 18" opaque and I'm really impressed with it. The box is of course rather large and long but with the long throw I can now set this back further. The larger triplet boosted my lumens as well especially with the bulb vertical. I roughly calculate another 200 lumens to the corners especially at a bigger projected image like 65"x85". This is with the s400dd ushio, I can imagine what a T15 bulb would provide as long as the arc does not dance around when positioned vertically. Who knows, I may still go vertically upright by adding a mirror to the front if I choose as Elken suggested .

I was afraid of the clarity to the corners as some have indicated using the 18" opaque triplet but this was not the case. I believe the precondenser helped rather well in this case. But, we'll see when I drop my LCD in this and find out how it performs compared to the LL's pro trippy as DAZZ as shown in his plog . It's definately in the BEAST catagory!

Here are some pics. Excuse the mess, hardly had time to clean

BTW, I want to thank DAZZ, pun15her and Nedster for the help on the measurements when adding the 18". Members like these make the builds so much easier. Nedster if you read this I really suggest a precondenser, it will definately help your corners as you reported in you 18" plog!

.....................

Corner shot. At first projection the corner was not clear but I wondered if I had replaced the center lens in the 18" triplet backwards when I dismantled it for cleaning and sure enough when I turned it around I was blown! So I corrected it and now it's as how you see it. It may be a bit shaddy because I was trying to focus from far away and my vision may have been temporarily off from looking thru the lens when centering the bulb

Rock and Roll! corner is very crisp! Now I am excited to get mine finished! Nice work Sim! In it's current config are the frensels unsplit?

You certainly didn’t muck around building that one.

DJ

You know that the Buhl lens will let you use a larger [shorter fl] condenser lens. If your triplet is only 80% full then I would guess that you could use a 20% shorter fl condenser lens.

That would be 20% more light too.

Now you know why I started the making a giant doublet thread it is great way to use longer arc lamps and get long life and good lumens.

The largest lamp arc that will fit......................................................................
A list of triplets and the fl and inside clear glass………With a 220mm or 330mm Fresnel

3M triplet……… 327mm fl…62mm clear glass F=5.2 …. 42mm……63mm

Buhl opaque.457mm fl….128mm clear glass F=3.57 ….61mm ….92mm

Pro lens……… 500mm fl…100mm clear glass F=5.0……44mm….66mm

Dukane OHP….355mm fl.80mm clear glass F=4.44….49.5mm…74mm

LL standard……320mm fl.61mm clear glass F=5.24…….42mm ….63mm

I think every "F" that we gain we will double the brightness of the PJ. It is the same thing as if we had the arc making double the lumens.

great job sim

AV
How do you find the F of a lens? Lucky Me sold me the lens that I have and installed different lenses in a BUHL case. The lens is a triplet, 100mm x 4in long. He said the FL was 17.5 or about 450.I am still learning about lenses but I would guess it is close to a 457. He said it was brighter than his 5in.

Yes, they are unsplit with about 10 to 20mm inbetween spacing I believe. Would you also beleive that I velcroed the collecting fresnel frame to the collimating fresnel frame just so that I can adjust and readjust for accurate centering? So far so good. I trust with the light box and air tunnel will greatly help from the adhesives of the velcro strips from sliding off.

Interesting idea with the velcro. As long as it doesn't get hot you should be ok. That is an interesting idea as I have 1 standard 317 and the uncut 550 that I really don't want to cut up too small, meaning that when the 17 does finally find it.s way here that I don't want to have to replace it. Then I just need a new collector. I could fix the 317 to one side and velcro the 550 to other making it airtight to protect against dust contamination and being adjustable as well. This will also help prevent the glowies. I have noticed some are having trouble with this using unsplit and being even 1mm off center when butted together.I am going to cut the sleds today and was undecided on how to do this and keep the 550 big enough to do a 17 later. Great idea!

Did you do a standard air intake to get fresh air into the box? I am still trying to decide what to do there to keep that layer of Lexan out of the box for that extra boost on lumens. Have an idea but I am trying for no airflow within the frensel/LCD area so it doesn't get as dirty. Right now I want to get the optics up and adjustments made inside so I can put the sled mounts in and get it painted.

Not sure on this yet. I'll be taking some temp readings to see if the LCD needs some cooling but so far having this puppy horizontal the rear fresnel is not even warm. I've notice though that when I was contemplating the vertical build the rear collimating frame began bowing from the heat that was rising. This might be because the entire unit was not enclosed to direct the flow of heat out but nevertheless there was a difference how much heat there was when the fresnel's and LCD were positioned vertically over the lamp compared to them being horizontally side by side.

Seems the velcroe idea is somewhat experimental. I am really confident that the heat while horizontal will have no detriment to the adhesives but in your case since your building vertically then I'd use a stronger type of glue that resists much of the heat. Or perhaps magnets instead? Hope this is not turning out to be silly ideas

BTW thanks fella's. A/V, I just thought of a kooky idea. Since Brain is pinning Hall of Famers for pj's wouldn't it be cool for a catagory of Extremers? Such as your overclocking the core ballasts, Elde's 1000w light bulb or my pouring paint stripper on an LCD?

I think in order to be in the hall of fame I might need to have a PJ The brightness problem is mostly solved just a few more test........... Did you see dazzla PJ screens shots? That lamp and reflector really work well. The tapered arc tubes might have a natural advantage and a reflector with full coverage for the condenser lens worked great.

Are you going to change the condenser or reflector to mach the buhl lens?

Hi I'm currently using a 4000k bulb which appears to be pretty bright but I was looking at a 10000k bulb it's stated to have a bright white color but do you know anyone who has tried out one of these bulbs. I'm just curious about how much of a difference that extra 6000k might make.

I think I'll start with the reflector. My 4.5" condenser is of course slightly bigger than my 4" ladle reflector so I'll step it back up to 5". Next I'll have to figure a way to try the 4 5/8" and 5" x 12 condensers, the mounting for these is the difficult part.

Sorry DMeat, but I'm not the expert here but my guess would be that it would be way to much in the temp range. I'm guessing that anything between 4000k to 6500k is best but even that depends on how you like watching your movies, bluish or yellowish I think

Guess what I'm doing right now..........man, I know I'm not going to hear the last of this from Mark

I even bought a brand new can of Marine Paint Stripper industrial strength for this second panel but I thought I'd give Mark's method a chance here. Sigh....ok Mark, lets get the ROASTING SIM part over with!

oops, fergot the evidence...hehehe

Sim it works a treat

I have done five panels now with water drowning.. hehehe


dont even have to polish polar bear after either,, clean as a whistle...

Hope it works out, so far I'm in 2 1/2 hours and it is covered with some plastic (silophane)spelling*.

I'm also testing mikyd's T15 bulb in the lightbox with the precondenser and the eballast. The arc dances or twirls a little in the vertical position but I'll give it as much time until I see the A/G start to lift. I must say I'm getting a lot of lumens compared to when I had I first tested the s400dd Ushio long time ago. Somewhere in the 1900's from about 9 feet. I think the highest I was getting back then was 1400's but of course the precondenser was not really measured correctly as far as near the bulb.

.............i hate you Mark!.........................

well, it worked after 3 and half hours I was able to lift the dreaded film and like how someone described it was like making sounds as if pulling tape off. Really nice, but...............i still hate you Mark! So, I'm now soaking the other TAC at the back side which is kind of strange because this is as if mirrored like. It be interesting to see what this film is really once I pull it off. Great method Mark.

Ok, after 2 hours mikyd's T15 bulb with the eballast seems to be behaving while in the vertical position with the BASE (which is the mugul) pointing UP. Facing down and the arc dances alot. But I'll test it further until again the rear TAC of my panel lifts.

This is interesting, I pulled 2 pieces of film off the rear of the panel. The pic below shows all three. The top film is the antiglare the bottom 2 are what came off the back side. The one on the left had a dichroic film about it while the one on the right was like a very thin sheet of aluminum film but was see thru plus it polarized when I twisted it. I had thought I had done the worst by pulling off the polarizer but my closer examination of the substrate at the edges reveals there is still a layer of film adhesed to both sides of the panel. I'm either afraid or elated that the polar might or might not be still on. I guess I'll have to wait for the panel to dry then proceed with a test if anything shows up.

Ok, I brought out my trusty Mag light and plugged her in...and...YES!!! The polar on the rear side is still there....whew!

Yea that was the same with my Sharp 15.4"

There were actually 4 layers on the back. A silver reflective layer, a layer with polarizing properties, the Tac layer, and then the polarizer.

Thought I'd show the size comparison when going larger triplet. She's a biggie. She's really built like a brick house, really sturdy. When standing vertical and folded (if I desired) the fs mirror would more than likely be perfect height for the screen, but just a guess.

Forget dogs, that's approaching human coffin sizes!

SIM,

I just want to kind of confirm what you pulled off of the back. I have what looks like a mirrored surfcae (silvery) on the back. Jon told me he had pulled that off and saw pretty good improvements. Is this what you pulled off? Was it pretty painless?

Its good to know that at least two people have had sucess removing this.

Thanks,
Brian

Yes, it was mirrored like. I'd had thought removing this would also include the TAC underneath it but what I had found was the dichroic like film then the silver mirror like film and no TAC unless thats still on the panel and I missed it. But I don't think so. Both films did not come off to easily unless I didn't give it much of a soak (impatience got the best of me). The first film was semi difficult the second even worst but I took my time peeling it about every 1/4 inch. Perhaps I should have let it soak another hour or two, totalling 4 hours.

Well, I've finally got the control board finish and I did a test with the vertical T15 bulb with eballast in the projector. The arc stayed still . Pretty bright, I did a quick lux read to the corners and I was hitting 1050 to 1150's at 3.11 sq/meters. Anyways, here are some pics of my control board, I kept it simple.

BTW mikyd, if you have read this, there was no interruption with the panel and the eballast. Just FYI.

I had this for some time. about 4 years already. I figured I'll incorporate it into this build. It's got all the bells and wistles for an alarm clock. Time 12/24, date, alarm, temperature both C/F for inside and outside, although, inside would be the room temperature and outside would be the LCD's temperature. I like it's techy look.

Maybe I'll just go vertical then add some chrome arms to her and slap a identification name on like SIM-P2...hehe.

Hey SIM, you have got to get some screens up for us soon man, I cannot wait to see your results.