Having seen jo@joewerb.com's results, I must say that his pictures are awesome!
The lamp used is an USHIO.

here is the link to the topic:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1012&st=0


Which model of USHIO is it? I suspect it is the UHI-S400DD T15.
Here is a link to the lamp:
http://www.lightsearch.com/search/lamps/hps.html

How much is it?
Does it work with a generic MH ballast?

The specs of the lamp seem excellent:
90 CRI, 5200K.

It should (and does) produce a very bright picture and be more white than yellow in colour.

Pez,

Sounds excellent. I think it would work with that Tridonic ballast I found on the uk lighting thread.

I'll enquire about it and see if it's available in our corner of the globe.

I thought he used the EYE in those images...

Also, what is the notion behind using lower color temp for the lamp, in comparison to the original backlight ?. If I'm not mistaken, Brainchild said he saw lamps with high color temps for the same price as low color temps, so why not try lamps with color temp of 6500K and see how it looks like ?.

Here, take a look at this lamp.

Most LCD panels that I know of, work with 6500K light, so why not use this color temp for the lamp too ?.

Were the specs comparable on these lamps though? Some lamps are decieving, a lot of 400w lamps have lower lumens than it initially would seem.

JR,
You may be right....His first post states that he uses the USHIO, but later he says it was broken....but did he take those shots when the USHIO was working or not?
That is not the point...He says himself that the USHIO produces a better picture: The specs are clearly better than the EYE.

Pez, I know this was not the point, but just thought I should mentioned it anyway.

The thing is, he used a higher color temp, closer to the backlight color temp of the regular LCD screen, and got better results. Why not try 6500K ?.


Edit,
I did some searching at diyaudio.com, and to my dismay found out the only guy there who seemed to definitely use a 6500K lamp is "Space Ninja" !
He talked with Brainchild about this lamp (this was almost a year ago), and Brainchild told him that he is not going to use it because it is too long for his enclosure. Then he showed him a 5200K USHIO lamp that he wanted to use.
Brainchild said that some guys used the 6500K lamps and said it was "too green", but I searched and found no reference for such guys. Maybe this was only a rumor ?. Anyway, I've seen the pictures that Space Ninja posted with the 6500K lamp, and they were definitely not green. He never complained about non accurate colors, he just said the colors looked faded, which might been a problem with his optics.

Brainchild, if you never tested a 6500K lamp just because you heard some rumor it might look too green, then it's too bad.

By all means use aquarium lamps. Most are twice as expensive and none have the smaller form factor.

Brainchild, what is wrong with this lamp ?. $60 isn't too expensive. Why are you refusing to check them ?. If the colors are going to appear much more natural then it might be worth it.

I'm sure that if you've seen your CMV 1515, back when it was still a monitor, operating with a 4200K backlight, you would have said it looked inferior to the normal 6500K.

I haven't 'refused' Jones...where do you get your ideas? That lamp's lumens are too low and the length is too long to be mounted horizontally. It's a nice lamp otherwise but it's $25 more.

Ok, sorry.


It says "29,000 initial and 22,000 mean lumens", how much is your current lamp ?, is the difference so crucial ?.


Isn't there anyway around that ?.

Don't you think the difference in picture quality might be worth the hassle ?.

Jones,

My lamp is 10.25" long, in order to mount mine with the arc on center, I had to have the base protruding from the side of the enclosure wall. Not a big problem, but in hindsight I would have made it wider in there.

I'd say that's a big difference in lumens btw, it would be v. noticable

What is the difference ?.


Edit,

Your 4200K,
Approximate Initial Lumens 39,000, Approximate Mean Lumens 30,800, Clear.

The 6500K,
29,000 initial and 22,000 mean lumens

Yeah a loss of 8000 lumens is very substantial. The lamps reach their mean very quickly.

Let me ask you this:
Assuming the form factor of the 6500K was smaller, and the lumens were the same as your 4200K, do you think it probably might have been a better lamp than the current, color wise ?.

Yes.

One needs to pay special attention to the CRI. I haven't researched the CRI, to fully understand it, so I don't know if a CRI of 90 is better or worse than the EYE bulb currently in use.

When first searching for a bulb on Ebay, I came across a lot of agricultural bulbs. All the links seem to say the bulbs had color SPIKES at such and such colors. Beware of color spikes.

Additionally, the link listed the bulb in question as having a life of 12,000 hours. Let me warn all of you, regardless of the bulb in use, that you will not get the full amount of hours out of them. I don't have a quote, or a link, for I refuse to ever search the GE website again, it's a mess, but:

The 20,000 hour life is based on an industrial setting, where the lamps are lit for 8-12 hours at a time or more. Our usage of 2 hours at a time or less will substantially shorten the life of the bulb. I will be very happy getting 5000 hours out of mine.

This pic from Evo's projector thread, I believe, looks very accurate, using the EYE bulb.

The color of the purple fish is unatural, but that is due to the aquarium bulb being used by the dentist in this shot. (I crack myself up.) (This entire sentence is humor, not fact. That fish has erratic color throughout the movie, so he must look that way in real life too.)

What impresses me most about this shot, is the fine detail visible in the shell. Awesome!

Here is the bulb of choice, currently: http://www.businesslights.com/product_info...products_id=361

I notice that those of you complaining about the "too much yellow" should actually be complaining about the too much orange. Take a look at the spectral analysis on the link above.

Jr's bulb is actually listed as a commercial bulb, not an aquarium bulb, on that site anyway. And compared to the orange spike, Jr's bulb doesn't seem so spikey anymore...

Yeah the high CRI is good. There are tons of lamps with higher color temps and CRIs but again there are many factors to consider. Many great projections have been made with halogens but the lamps were obviously flawed. Cinema projectors use xenon which is great for color but awful in expense and difficult to use. I am looking at some 6500k double ended but if the lumens aren't there then it might be a bad lamp for the 'basic projector'.

...but maybe sufficient for the 7" projector? Or would the heat be an issue if it's still 400w?

But let's also not forget that when using a 29,000 lumens lamp, instead of 39,000 lumens lamp, you will be able to get the same power of luminance if you will reduce your screen width by about 15%. Not everybody needs a 10 feet wide screen.

Exactly my point jones, a lower wattage lamp with similar lumens would suffice for the 7" I think.

True jones, all my image pics were taken at 15' away and sized in a window to fit screen on some of them, but when i moved my projector 8' away man it got alot brighter, I forgot all about this and should have taken some pics then...

Ah, yes, we need to make a note in the 'standards of measure' post. For better comparisons, we need a standard screen size....

Until it is tried with the 7" panel it is speculation. The problem is the threshold of light the panel can take and still make black. The 7" wouldn't require more than 250w I would imagine.

What's the deal with the BT28, BT37, BT56 on the bulbs?


The EYE we use is cheaper in the BT37 style, by $10 or so.

Lamp envelope sizes.

I guess that 1000w monster Kellie holds up in one post is a BT56 then.

And if you don't want the reflector, it may be worth the lower cost to try to fit the BT37 in your enclosure horizontally. It is a much higher quality bulb than the GE's or Sylvania's, at nearly the same price.

Yes 56 is the giant bulb.

Well, as it stands for now I will be using a 6500K lamp in my pj. I need a 6 feet wide screen, so lumens won't be a problem. Anyway I hope that in the next few months Brainchild will find an appropriate 6500K lamp for his needs, and test it thoroughly. I really hate the thought of being a guinea pig, even though 6500K looks very promising.

To clear some subjects: (taken from a "reef tank" web site)



Brainchild, if you're looking into Double-Ended MH, be sure to take into account that it might not have UV radiation blockage. Also, I've searched for 6500K double ended MHs, but didn't find anything with more than 150W (~9000 lumens). The CRI was very high though, 96.






Btw, the CRI rating of the 4200K EYE lamp is only 65. (while 90 for the 6500K EYE).

You're wrong Jones. Most double ended are in fact in a UV envelope. It is much harder to find lamps that aren't and when you do there are many caveats about the danger involved. Jones, your incessant, often irrelevant posting is getting tiresome. Do your research and keep your mouth shut until become knowledgeable enough on a subject to back your assertions with hard fact.

Ouch! (Is this a Gandlaf boomerang ?).
Anyway, as you see the lack of UV blockage is written at the post I've quoted, I didn't made that up. Just wanted to make sure you are aware of this possible problem. If this problem doesn't seem to exist with the double ended MHs you've checked, then all the better. Why being grumpy about it ?.

About the "irrelevancy" issue, I don't think the info I posted above fits into this category (even though it was taken from a "reef tank" related website). This is a thread about the "best lamp". The info I posted above explains terms like "CRI", which were explained nowhere in the forum before (yes, you said "more CRI is better", but I thought some people might want a bit deeper explanation). Also, it explains why it is difficult to find a 6500K lamp with the same lumen output as a 4200K one. As a bonus, I added some quotes about the different types of MH available, and also, some words about heating issues, you know, for newbies (only thing you have to do is replace the word "trank" with "LCD panel", and things fits very well with this forum).

Oh, and about the fluorescent comparison, while not totaly relevant, I thought it would be nice to break the misconception a few have that fluorescent produce less heat than metal halides per square mm for the same output of light.

I think that if I'll need to justify the relevancy of my posts from now on, my posts will get much more "tiresome" than they are today. Are you sure you're up for it ?.

Go to the manufacturers' websites and download the pdfs for the lamps in question. The non UV lamps will not typically have an outer glass envelope no matter what the form factor.

I'm not grumpy Jones just asking you to do a bit more research and not base your assertions on an aquarium website or a picture from a 'great projector'...ok?

No need to rub it in. You're the boss.

Anyway, Brainchild, what is the most powerful, 6500K, double ended lamp you've found to date ?.

If you're going to go the 6500K route, as stated, may I make a suggestion? Since the bulbs life rating is lower, and the bulbs cost is double, perhaps a $165 IceCap electronic ballast is in order. They are reputed to extend bulb life, among other things, such as feed the bulb an extra 30 watts or so for extra output.

I was actually considering, because of this thread, to go the 6500K route myself. I have decided against it, due to a few things. One, most pics look good to my eyes, from those who have used the EYE. Two, when in 'movie' mode, most monitors go to their warmest color temp settings. That has me thinking that for movies, warmer is better. Three, well, I've already got a bunch of useless universal bulbs, and my EYE's have been ordered.

I may also test a large Bulb similar the the original, because i have enough room in the bottom of my projector, and also i can mount it at a 45deg. angle and because i have a standup projector it is still mounted horz.

here are the specs.

Lamps: Lamp Type - Metal Halide; Watts - 400; Bulb - ED-37; Base - Mogul, Position Oriented; Color - Clear; ANSI Code/Ballast - M59; Operating Position - Horizontal ±45 ; Application - Enclosed Luminaires; M.O.L. (in) - 11 1/2; Avg Life (hrs) - 20000; Initial Lumens - 40000

Tony, thanks for the info, but I'm not going to use the pj for more than 10-20 hours a week, on average for a whole year. That said, it will probably take me 2-3 years to reach 2000 hours on the bulb (which is less than 20% of its advertized life, so it should handle it). By then I'll probably replace the entire pj.

About the extra 30watts. I won't need it. I only need a 6 feet wide screen. In practice I'll probably need to use a ND filter, to reduce the light output from the pj, even with a 20,000 lumes lamp.


Some of them looks very good to my eyes too, but it could always look better. Look at the pic Norlander took of the sleeping fish using his CRT TV, and tell me there is no room from improvements (yeah, I know, haven't I learnt anything...). Also, apart from 6500K, the CRI is much better too. Tony, it looks promising.


I have a choice with my 22" CRT monitor to set the color temp manually. I can tell you that the move from ~5000K to 6500K is very positive. White becomes whiter, and colors become purer (I can't set it any lower than 5000K, but I'm sure I would have liked it less). The move from 6500K to 9300K is a toss. It becomes a bit blue, but I like it for internet surfing. Also, as far as I know, most commercial pj's use 6500K capable lamps too. I know that some pj's have an option to set a warmer color, but the minimum is almost always 6500K. I've never seen or heard about a commercial pj that uses a 4200K color temp. That's extreme. And maybe the most convincing argument should be that the original backlight of the LCD panel is capable of 6500-9300K. The Contrast ratio tests for LCDs that I've seen, where conducted at 6500K. I don't know if that's the standard, but it is certainly a very common color temp for CR tests. Why on earth won't we try to match that ?.

The engineers who worked at matching the backlight color temp to the monitor's LCD panel, chose 6500K for a reason.


That's a different story. Still, it's only $60...
I would say wait for someone else to try it. If the difference is big, then you can always replace your bulb.

Man no wonder i never read all of jones posts, just to damn long......

So does that mean he speaks but no one listens? or is listening to him.

hmmmm wonder if his post gets automatically del. after 15 days?

The IceCap electronic ballasts have a dimmer Jones, dims it down to 250w, should improve your contrast.

Also, if you're using a 15inch panel, and using the zoom lens in developement, I'd reccommend trying an apeture with the lens, like the, the... Was it the Sanyo or the Panasonic that had the aperture in the lens for improved contrast? By only using the 15 inch panel, along with the massive 100mm optics, should be able to get away with some aperture adjustiing.

you have to talk to jones if future tense not the present tense, he does not have a projector built yet. he is kinda speculating what might happen i would supose.

I have no experience with light dimmers, but if it is anything like in the audio world, it is a bad thing. In the audio world a volume attenuator can't maintain a constant frequency response, over all attenuation points (unless it is very, very well made). Besides, in the constrac (you know what maybe Joe is right, let's end it here).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you have to use a dimmable MH lamp with the dimmable ballasts.

So, Brainchild, are we the T800 now ?. Quite a steep downgrade from the all mighty, all knowing eye. Even though we must be fair, I mean, after a sentence like: Honest as you are, you thought of yourself as no longer worthy for the "all knowing eye" icon, but then again, why step so low ?, nobody would have said anything if you've chosen to be the T1000. Now, since you're leaving yourself nowhere dignify to fall, I'm afraid of what's going to happen after your next slip, an icon of a sunny-side up inside a Norpro ?.

Btw, you haven't answered my question yet. What is the strongest (in terms of lumens) double ended MH lamp you've found ?.

That's the EYE of Hal-9000 Dave. I don't know the most powerful 400w double ended off the top of my head. In the last year I must have researched 10,000 lamps. I'm trying to find lamps in China as we speak so I'll let you know what I find out.

Hey, you mean you've found a 400w, 6500K double ended MH ?. Are we talking CRI higher than 65 ?.

I had before but I lost contact with that company so it's back to the trade leads. Yeah I'm going to get 6500k 90cri but I don't yet know if they will be double ended or not. Also getting a sample order of electronic ballasts.

What are the advantages of electronic ballasts over magnetic ones, for this project ?. And what is the difference in price ?.

This ballast will cost about $100. They are lightweight (save $$$ on shipping), run cool, save energy, are small, have a high power factor, get more lumens from the lamp and many other advanced features.

I don't think the bulb needs to be special, or dimmable Brain. I am sure the lamp has to be fired up and at a reasonable operating temp before it can be dimmed, but that is mere speculation.

I have decided to get one when the zoom is ready, I'll let you know.