Well it's time for build #2. I will be starting this build in a few days. Here is the part list.

15 inch BenQ 567sV2(current) DEAD
15.4 X2Gen MW15A WXGA
330/550 frensel combo unsplit(have/shipped)
HPS Ballast(have)
S400DD(have)
Pro Reflector(have)
380mm lens(have )
Condenser for light engine(shipped)
FS Mirror(have)
Cabinet
1 120mm fans(have)
2 120mm fan grills(have)

I will be taking my time and building smarter with this one. On build #1 the USHIO change has made the point light alignment impossable to accomplish without a major rework of the box or making a very ugly mod so here goes build #2

More to follow

Hi All

Here is a rough sketch of Projector #2. This is the projection portion of the box. Final size is going to be 54in tall by 17 in square. The LCD and unsplit 330/550 frensel will be combined in the same frame and mounted to the box with a UV between the two frensels. I am going to attempt to cool the box with no heat shield but if I can't control the heat I will add one. Hoping to get a lumen gain this way. There will be 2 120mm fans in the light box and I am hoping that this will be enough to keep it cool. I will post the light box plan soon. This projector will have a seperate ballast section and HTPC as well. I will be following SIMUL8R's Precondenser lead to boost the lighting. Thanks for all your research in this area!

The Plan

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More to follow

Good luck ChuckL, remember...my gains were also achieved with the bulb perpendicular to the panel. I know some folks are getting confused by when I say vertical. This is when the projector is built in the usual straight projection way. What ever the case is either building a (Haas) straight shooter or 'pun15her' vertical style the bulb has to be perpendicular to the panel and not parallel with. It sounds ackward but because of the round shape of the arc, these sides help a great deal to reach the longer length of the panel as compared to the capped ends of the arc. Of course this was done using the S400DD Ushio.

Thanks SIMUL8R,
I have been reading your plog and precondenser topic and I must say excellent work. I don't have much light physics background or physics at all. HEHE never took it in school, I am kinda letting on my age with that statement but WTF. You guys are way over my head but I am trying to keep up and learn a little. I haven't bought a condenser yet, I am going to try to find one local at a TV shop. There are like 6 in 5 miles of me and 4 I know that deal with RPTV's for sure. If I don't find one I will get one at Surplus Shed. Any sugestions as far as size.

Also I read that you did a double reflector. I am ordering a Pro from the storefront but also have an IKEA napkin. Do you think those two would work ok together?
Does this design look ok to you. I think I have the numbers ok.
Thanks

Hey Chuck I need to keep an eye on your plog the condenser lense was never in my plans I like the setup that I have but I want to see if you are happy with the quality you get from it compared to your old setup. Good luck with the new PJ.

To be honest with you ChuckL, I'm in the same boat as you. No schooling on physics on light. I've just been wondering if it would make a difference if the bulb was perpendicular to the panel instead. So, with a little experimenting I found how it covered a 10"x13" square on a whiteboard better. I then decided to try playing around with the 4.5" condenser when I discovered how much brighter it came. Add the two and came up with my light box.

Are you going to use a 15 or 17" panel? The 4.5", 6.5FL from Surplus Shed works with the 15. If your going 17 then check the Precondenser thread for further details on which lens to get. The Pro reflector within a reflector is actually just the sides of my ladle helping. The Pro reflector works fine, it's just that by raising the sides up around the arc the reflection from the polished ladle added a little more lumens.

I have a 15 now,BenQ 567s in build #1. I would like to do a 17 thou. I have to see if I can find a really good panel at a really good price first. I would really like to go with a DELL 1705 for that 1000:1 contrast ratio but if I can't get it right away I will go with the BenQ for a wile. I am building the box to hold either panel. When I get the frensels I will not cut them. I ordered to fit a 17' panel so I will build the sled to house either size. I am trying to locate a panel already but don't have 300+ bucks to drop but if I find one for half of that I can make it happen. On a budget so I have to watch how much I spend to keep the books ok. Hehe if I had the cash.....I wouldn't have it very long.

Just a small update,
My lens is paid for and on it's way and I have also got a pro reflector in the same shipment. A fello forum member hooked me up! Thanks!

Have also picked up some 1/2 in MDF to build this cabinet. Layed out the cabinet today so I am ready to do some cutting. Will wait a few days before I do it thou as it is supposed to get rainy and cold the next few days and I don't like to cut MDF in the garage. The dust is very fine and gets everyware. For those of you who have never worked with this material ALWAYS wear a mask and if possable cut it outdoors. The dust is very bad for you.

Still looking for a monitor but no luck yet. Will post some pics when the cabinet is cut and assembled.

Will do the Light box plans this weekend and try to post by Monday
Later

Still have not gotten around to doing the light box plans as I am still researching it, Want to do it right the first time and I am still not educated enough but I am close to a decision. In the inteligent design thread there is a lot of info on precondenser light engines and the research is ongoing. Here is a link to the thread
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9656

Have started on the cabinet finally. Have all of it cut except the light box and lcd/frensel sled. I ended up shaving 1/2 in off of the design so I could build it out of a single sheet of MDF. 16.5 in square by 50 in tall. The lens assy will be at about 48 in from the floor after the wheels are put on. The Lt side panel and the top will be hinged for easy access and maintnance .I will be putting the HTPC on the top behind the mirror, in a modified desktop case mounted to the underside of the top.
Pics of the start of the cabinet.
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Still waiting on parts and hope to continue very soon!

Later

Good start Chuck just take some good pics for us.

i was just wondering why did u want to use the 330/550 setup rather than the 220/550 setup. it seems that the 220/550 would be better

This would be true in a standard setup meaning no condenser and a 15 in monitor, With a 17 in monitor and a condenser a 220 would never be able to illuminate the panel. Here is part of a post from the precondenser thread that is linked above that explains it very well. It is possible to illuminate a 15 inch panel with the right combo of precondenser and 220 frensel. This is from post 40 in that topic.



Since both the fresnel and precondenser are actually both condenser lenses, they have a combined focal length determined by this formula:

Combined FL = (f1 x f2) / (f1 + f2 - d)

where d = distance between lenses.

Using the information above for Sim's precondenser set up, we have the following theoretical combined FL:

Sim's combined FL = (317 x 165) / (317 + 165 - 222) = 201mm

So this is less than the FL of the standard 220mm fresnel, but not by a huge amount, hence his moderately better brightness results. A shorter FL means that the lens or lens combination can capture more light.

Therefore a combined FL that was even lower, perhaps 180mm or so, would produce even more dramatic improvements in overall brightness.

To obtain this lower combined FL, Sim would need to use a precondenser with a shorter FL than 165mm. Anchor Optical has a PCX that is 113mm x 141mm FL, so that would qualify. Let's plug it into the formula:

New combined FL = (317 x 141) / (317 + 141 - 222) = 189mm

So we've made some progress and would theoretically capture more light in an ideal world. A shorter FL precondenser would be even better if it could be found and made to work.

Now let's use a standard 220mm fresnel instead of a 317mm. Using Sim's Surplus Shed precondenser, the combined FL is now:

New combined FL = (220 x 165) / (220 + 165 - 154) = 157mm

So we have made a huge gain. Note that the distance between lenses is now 154mm due to the shorter FL fresnel. And this is one of the combinations I have tried myself. But I wasn't able to fully illuminate my 15" LCD. The bulb was moved so close to the lens that I believe light began reflecting off the back side of the glass out at the fringes instead of passing on through. So it was pushing the physical limits too far. I also may have had better luck with a larger diameter reflector (than the IKEA) - but that is also just a guess.

If you are interested in how this works just click thw link I posted in the post above, it is interesting.

Sorry it has been so long for doing an update but life does sometimes get in the way.

Got some really cool stuff in the mail today! my new lens and a pro reflector!

I just did the focal on the new lens and it is 450mm/17.5in.
This lens is a custom! The casing is from a BUHL lens and from the looks of the lettering it is a very old casing, It is in great shape and it is a triplet. The lens is 100mm in size(4in)x100mm in length.It is beautiful. Played around woth it this afternoon on my current build and it is very clear and captures a lot of light. I can't wait for the rest of the parts to come in so I CAN DO THIS BUILD!
I would like to thank Lucky Me for his expertise and for modifing this lens for me. You are the bomb bro!
He also sent me a pro reflector with the lens.
A few pics!
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The Lens
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Pro Reflector



Still waiting on the condenser and frensels to arrive

Stay tuned

I have a 550 frensel on the way now! RLWOODJR hooked me up!
Thank You RL
Now all I have left to find is 2 120mm fan grills and I will be in business

Making? You mean modified it? Curious, how was it made better if you don't my asking. Lucky, you can chime in here if you'd like

Well ok modified. Lucky put in a different lens set, The original lens had a focal length of 14in, at least that is what the lens casing says(14 in fl f3.5)The current setup has a focal length of 17.5 in(450mm). This is a lens he worked with during the parabolic testing. I played with it some last night. Had to use the 317 frensel thou as my 550 is now on it's way.
Very clear and good brightness. Will have to wait on the frensel for more solid results thou.

Go to Tanner Electronics in Carrollton (Valwood Pkwy east of I-35) and they have grills, fans, etc. Sat hours are 9-3.

I have the Besseler 18" 475, your Buhl was lower than this? So Lucky increased it to 450?

They also have them at Micro Center on 75 in Richardson. going tonight to pick them up!
Thanks Bevo

I am not sure what he did to increase them, When I bought them Lucky said it had a fl between 17-18 inches. I know that he changed the lenses in it. At 19 feet of throw he hit his test mark of 15.4 feet in screen size during the parabolic light testing. I did a rough calculation using a lightbulb and the writing on the bulb was in focus at 17.5 feet.
Lucky feel free to chime in on this as I am not lens savy.

Sim I also ordered one of those JAEGERS 5" DIA, 12" FL PCX LENSES to play with! Do you think that will work with a 220?

Thanks ChuckL for what info you may have on the modification. As far as the lens I couldn't properly work this out within my old build (lightbox was to big) with the 220 or the 317. It did offer good coverage but I was hoping for more lumens. I'm hoping the new build will iron this out. But, this is what Dajyn suggest will work since he had this working before his lens cracked from heat. I forget, are you still going with the 15" Benq or a 17"?

For now I am going to use the BENQ, I will not cut the frensels and wait to see what I can come up with for a different monitor at a later date. I was going to send the first build to my son but he wants to do a hami or lillput for size. He doesn.t have a lot of space. In the Air Force at OFFUTT in Nebraska and living in the dorms. I am sending him my std lens set thou.
The box is way big enough for the 17 but I am not sure yet, I am thinking about a 15.4 WUXGA if I can find the funds. Your first build was a 15 Ben wasn't it? I will be happy just to get the projector out of my line of site... HEHE

HOORAH!


Not a Benq just a Cornea brand 25ms, 500:1 15". Aim High

Way to go Chuck I'm interested in both your new build and Simule8r's build since my new design is going to be a bit tricky. The whole precondenser lense thing is something I've heard metioned before so its good to see it in action. Since I just had another b-day come on down I'm going to use a few bucks from my allowance and order the first parts to my pj the 12 inch lcd no giong back once you start buying the parts it's supposed to be modified to have a 1500:1 brightness ratio just wish that was the contrast. You may have also convince me that I should have gone with the taller plans for my pj just in case the extra length was needed but that will have to wait until the summer. I can't wait until you start post test pics of your light engine in action.

Thanks Darkmeat
I am hoping to get the light engine started this weekend. At least get the box built for it and pre assemble the light mount and get the reflector mount made. I think the build will go pretty quick once I get all the parts in.

Went shopping today and picked up my new 120mm ac fan for the lightbox and 3 120mm grills. One for the fan and 2 for the condenser lens.
The fan is a ORION CHALLANGER MODEL OA4715-12TB. $ 14.50 with cord. It flows 105cfm of air and I am hoping it will be enough to cool the box and condenser. It has a noise rating of 45 db which is a little loud but it will be inside the box and will have a lot of room inside. I don't think I will hear it too much. I am going to start the light engine build tomorrow!
Hey Sim
Is this enough airflow?
Some pics
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The Challanger
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The grill
Later

I would say. I'm only using 1 for the entire build which pulls 150 cfm.. Curious, do you have a drawn plan as to how this lightbox would look like?

Sim
I do not have a drawn plan as to how the lightbox will look. I will be modeling off yours though and I am going to make the front changable so I can use different condensers. I have the Surplus Shed 4.5 x 4 and the Jaegers 5 in(only one) now. Received them today and got my 550 yesterday so I am about ready to start. These are my delimias
1. Still working on the light/ reflector mount in my head.
2. Need to figure a way to make it adjustable so I can change the condensers without having to tear the light box apart.
3. Debating the reflector in a reflector thing but not sure if I want to do that. Were your gains worth the extra work?
4. I am still researching the numbers to give me a starting point with the lenses.(Jaegers mostly)
5. Not sure how to mount the Jaegers yet.
6. Thinking about a removable front panel on the lightbox but not sure out of what yet.
Any ideas? As you can see I still have a lot of work to do.
A few pics
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The new lenses/reflector

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4.5 in and 5 in condensers

Any help is appreciated!

3. No, not really, I just increased it by so much, like 3 towards sides.
4. Me too, as soon as my new build gets there I'll be figuring out which to use for the best, including mikyd's T15 bulb.
5. Hehe, ditto. But, I'm confident we'll figure this out.
6. Understood, I just got lucky with the aluminum plate. A metal plate perhaps, I seen some at my favorite hardware stores.

One thing's for sure, it seems tunneling the air around the bulb disapates the heat quite well especially if we're using a condenser lens. Not to mention directing the air over and under the condenser lens. I used the 5" lens flushed on the aluminum plate covering the entire hole and, although, air was tunneled underneath it the lens seemed to have gotten hotter compared to the 4.5" lens.

With the 5 in were you still using the 317? Also if you mounted the 5in flush with the panel and it was warmer then mine will most likley be hot, My fan is rated at 105cfm wile yours is at 150 so this concerns me a little. If I use just the pro that should help keep the heat off so it could be a wash maybe. What if you drilled a few holes around the condenser? Do you think that would help keep it cooler.
I think I will try some aluminum lined mdf for the front panel to see if it would work. that would make it easy to change the condensers too, Just change it out.Are you still using a heatshield on your build? Without it it would be a few extra lumens so I am going to try this and see if this is worthwile. My only concern here would be UV. I am not sure that the condenser would block this but I think I have a sheet filter here if my son didn't take it. Well it is out to the garage to play so I'll ck in later.

Yes, with the 5" I tried the 220 and the 317 but like I said my new lightbox was to big to manipulate it in the old build. I had to even bring the sled further back but popped the triplet out of it's mount bringing it closer. Not sure if 105cfm will be enough but my 150 is quite loud and I was thinking I might go down to 130 if I can't quiet it. The pro design should help with heat and the holes around the lens is good idea. I don't know how thick of a mdf your planning on using but my lens to my bulb is about 11mm's spaced right now with the 4.5". No I removed the heat sheild (lexan) since the condenser and the air tunnel seems to be dissapating the heat quite well. As far as UV, I recalled that PVA (polarizer) in the antiglare thread is not affected much by UV (may have to research back) I'm not to concern with the rear fresnel. BTW are you going split or unsplit, sorry if I missed this.

I would make the condenser lens fixed and make the lamp adjustable. The 330mm should be better in almost all setups.

OK I'm really insane now.[edit ] there is no room with the pro reflector.

The pro reflector is a little small to use with a strong condenser lens and you have two condensers why not use the extra condenser on the reflector side?? It would make the reflector look larger to the triplet. The only problem is the heat on the lens.

This may not work because it will shorten the fl of the reflector but if the reflector is almost touching the condenser it may work.

Chuck let me know if you would still be willing to part with one of those lenses DIY has put me into limbo at this point and now I really wish I had went ahead and ordered a larger fs mirror. The fs mirror I'm using it only 6.5"x4.5" so my triplet lense is practicaly right on it in order to capture the image. Also is the 4" or 5" lense better for sending the light to a 220mm fresnel?

It would be a different approach for sure but i am not sure that would work. I could build enough play in the reflector mount to try it though. If it makes the reflector appear larger will it actually make it brighter. Wonder what Dajyn or Rox would think about this idea? Sim you think this would work?

Another idea I had today was to cut out the IKEA and see if this might produce anything. I know that the pro has been put in this config before and it didn't yeild much but I don't think that it was cut in. I might try this just because I can.

Darkmeat
After I get thru with the lightbox and provided I don't crack any of the lenses I will be happy to send you one. I have 3 of the 4.5 and 1 of the 5 inch so that one is off the table. I hope to do the build on the light engine this week. I got them thru Surplus Shed. DIY has condensers?
Sim
I don't know if I will be doing split or not yet, with your report of some yellowing I will make that call after I do some testing. In F calc the difference is only about 10 mm so it shouldn't take much to readjust to make it opticaly sound.

I'm trying to decipher what you and A/V are referring to. All I can say is that I'm using the 4.5"x6.5"fl condenser lens with my 4" ladle with the pro reflector in it. I could take out the pro if I wanted to and still have good projection cutting my lumens down to around 160ish. Now the distance to bulb from condenser is as I mentioned about 11 to 12mm. I could bring it down to 4 or 5 if I wanted to but thats just spreading out the light more and not concentrating it towards the rear fresnel. This is of course with a 15" LCD. The 5" condenser is I suppose a different story. I had tried it with the 4" ladle and notice perhaps it was tunnelling....not sure but I bought now a 5" ladle to experiment with the 5" lens. I'm trying to bring the lamp closer for more brightness without sacrificing even coverage.....we'll see. Therefore the going and working setup for a 15" panel is the 4.5"x6.5" condenser with or without the pro reflector in a 4" ladle.

Sim
We were reffering to using another condenser on the backside of the bulb next to the reflector to make it appear larger to the triplet.

You mean as in sandwiching the bulb between to condensers? Interesting, wonder what that would produce. Hmmmm, now you got me curious. Only one way to find out.

Gotta admit that AZ had a interesting idea. We need to throw this idea at Dajyn and Rox to see what they think too. I am very curious too. I have already left room in my light box plan for that. Going to make a post in your precondenser plog.

Hey Chuck I took apart the longthrow lense that I had and place one of the condenser lenses from it over my bulb to see if was the same as the ones that you had ordered. It does appear to enlarge the bulb envelope quite a bit I would assume that these are the same ones that you had ordered seperately? I'm tempted to see if they can help increase the brightness from my bulb to the triplet but of course it will mean increasing distance of the lcd and fresnel tray. It's going to be awhile until my lense arrives so as soon as it does I'll put the triplet back together. Looking forward to seeing how much of an increase in brighness the lense can give.

What kind of triplet is that? If you were to measure the lens in mm accross the back and height we can probally determine the fl if the lens.

Sim had some really good results with his and it was the determing factor for me to do this in this build. I have to build another one now also, my daughter wants one so looks like I will be busy..HEHE

For my trouble I will be getting a 17in monitor! but it will not be for a wile. My son in law said I can pick the one that I want to use and he will buy 2 of them so my HD is on the way! But it will be May before he can do anything. It will give me time to figure out which one we will use.

On the build side of things:

Got all the lines layed out in the box. I have decided to try unsplit just for giggles.
Got the condenser lens mount made
Got the plywood lens mounts cut.
Have a start of a light box. Left room for a rear reflector/condenser setup but I will need to find a sutible reflector first. I may try to do this later when I upgrade to the 17 in May.
Pics will follow in the next post, after I get a little more done.
ChuckL

ChuckL, I hate to throw this in the list of things your collecting but if you could score a lux meter it would be of great help for you and an interest for us.

Sim
Already looking for one. Any recomendations?

Update
It was not a productive weekend. I spent most of Sunday under my daughters car and then guess what happens.... :angry: Grandaughter goes into my garage and manages to break my pro reflector and bend one of the rails for my lens mount.....Build on hold for new parts. I need some of the parts from build 1 so I am on hold til I get the new reflector. I want to be able to watch some flicks so I will most likely wait til the new pro gets here or Saturday before I do any more work on this build.



I will be however working on a reflector for the double condenser idea. I think I know what to use for it but I will hold of on that til I get it in my hands. I will tell you it is a car part. you will see soon



Later

Well been a few days since my last post, Life,liberty and the persuite of happiness and all that crap.

Got my new Pro Reflector in yesterday so I can continue with the light box now. Have to get some hardware first but will do that today.

I did however do some work on my box. Got my frensel and LCD/Collector sleds cut and my Lens assy assembled and Installed. Some pics and details of the lens.

I cut a 1/2 in piece of plywood to a 6in square and then cut a hole in the center just a little smaller than the lens using an adjustable hole cutter. Then trimmed the top edge off some as there will be nothing mounted in the top of it. Sanded the inside if the mount until I got a real tight fit and painted it black.
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Then pressed the two pieces together. It is very tight and took a bit of pressure to get it together.
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I was going to use a set of keyboard rails to mount the lens but when I went to HD they were 25 bucks so I checked the thrift stores to see it I could find them but no joy. I had a set of euro style drawer rails so I decided to try and use them and they work great!
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As I was standing in the workshop I noticed that my stockpile of assorted hardware was badly depleated. I didn't have all of the correct hardware to do the mount and I didn't have any sutible brackets or tapered bolts to do the job. Started looking around the shop to see what I come up with. Found some JB quick and was looking in my computer stockpile and found a bunch of those card covers for the back of computer cases. I was in business!
Preped them by using a bench grinder to rough them up and get the paint off of the rails so the JB quick would stick to them better,and cut two of them down a little. Did the same to the rails.
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Continued next post

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Prepped rails


Put the two together with JB Quick and painted them black,
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Installed the rails on the lens and in the box. I designed it to keep the lens from sliding out of the hole. once it is installed you can't remove the lens without removing the outer rails.
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I will be working on the light engine this weekend so I hope all goes well and I can post some pics soon

Later
ChuckL

Didn't get to do a lot this weekend, here in Dallas all it did was rain all weekend. I am working with MDF and I have a rule with this stuff. I never cut this material in the garage. It is very bad for you and I don't want the dust floating around so I didn't get the boards for the light engine cut.

I did find a way to mount my pro reflector and got my condenser mounted!
I used 120mm fan grills to mount my condenser. On the grill I cut all but the last ring off 2 of them and mounted with screws ,washers and nuts. Used the washers as spacers to ensure there was not too much pressure so the condenser can expand some.
Some Pics
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Pro reflector next post

I had ti think about this one for a bit, I had seen several mounts on a few plogs but I don't have a lot of metal tools to work with. You folks all know the right tools can make all the difference in your build!
After several attempts to mount the pro and failing, I came up with this mount. It is easy and doesn't require any special tools.
When I mounted the condenser and I had cut the center out of the fan grills. Lucky for me I didn't pitch them as I think they are a good way to mount the pro reflector. Here is what the leftover piece looks like.
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To make the mount you will need two of these or 2 120mm fan grills,4 bolts(guessing 5/16 or metric 6 at least 2 inches long)8 nuts and 16 washers.
Parts before assembly.
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The 2 fan grills are different. The top ring has 3 rings and is cut tight to the inner ring. The second has 2 rings and is cut to leave a post protruding or cut behind the third ring. These little posts have to be bent down to sit against the back of the reflector, To do it use 2 pair of plyers. I used needle nose,One to hold the inner ring at the weld and the other to bend the post down a little.
Take the 4 bolts and put washers on them and place them between the outer and 2 ring of the grill, make sure the post that holds the fan grill together is topside.Place a washer and nut on the backside and tighten. It should look like this.
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Then turn it upside down and place a washer on each of the bolts. Put the reflector inside.It should look like this.
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Con't next post

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Next put the 2 ring grill with the posts pointing up onto the bolts and place a washer on each one followed with a nut. Then tighten the nuts and wala! One pro mount!
There should be a little play, a 1/16in for expansion
The final product!
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Next?
Light box assembly!
ChuckL

Good work ChuckL, this is getting really interesting, keep it up!