[mikyd1954]

OK, I thought it might be nice to try to gather together some of the numerous experiments going on with precondensers here at LL ...

*********************************************************************
NEWS:
meyer2 got the Altman pcx 4.5x6.5 lens, it is indeed 4.5" in diameter so equivalent to the Shed lens, but hopefully Pyrex so it should last a lot longer
*********************************************************************

Sources:

precondensers:

http://www.surplussh...item/l3539.html 4-5/8x12"FL precondenser
-----------------------------------------------
from Durachko:"I bought a 4.5" x 6.5" Plano Convex Lens from pnta @ $56 + $12.83 shipping, their part #C2519602."
http://www.pnta.com - lenses,reflectors from stage lighting
------------------------------------------------
from arizonavideo:
"I ordered some altman parts from these guys and the price was less than listed and they did shipp the parts. Helpfull on the phone too."
http://www.productio...instparts.htm#L
I think he said the altman condenser was $48.00 or $41.00
shipping from production advantage is outrageous though, about 20$ for a small 1lb(tops) box

Focal Length Calculations

*********************************************************************

----HQI Mounts----

Sim has ordered an hqi socket from hellolights.com:
250W HQI Socket Pair 61-1000110 1 16.95 MH Bulb = None
Subtotal 16.95
Shipping 7.95
Tax 0.00
Total 24.90
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I ordered from premiumaquatics.com:
LN-HQI-S250 250w HQI Socket only pair w/bracket $19.95
$6.85
Sales Tax: $0.00
Total: $26.80
the bracket is too short for the 400 watt bulb, but you could probably cut it in half and mount the bracket halves on another piece of metal or wood...
----
Sim says that http://search.ebay.c...ssZpmlightingco where he bought his old-style HQI lamps informed him that they have HQI sockets for 9.98, no word on shipping though
*********************************************************************

----Reflectors----

non-standard reflectors(not counting the pro, the ikea etc)
Sims 5" ladle:
with a little cutting and polishing this will work well with the sub 6" precondensers
Do a google search for Hamilton Beach Ladle #87350
I got mine at a stor called "Kitchens" at an outlet mall
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arizonavideos Colortran reflector:
part # SMP-28058-00 8" colottran fresnel spotlight reflector from
http://lms.leviton.com/contactus.aspx
I believe he said it was 32.00 including shipping
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a 6" aluminum reflector coming from Strand(from their 6" fresnel), should be here next week(7/21)
will post results of its actual size when I get it
************************************************
Definition: Vignetting (aka ROX): the ratio of the corners average LUX of the projection to the center LUX reading, used to indicate how even the light is on the projection... example- the lux readings from meyer2 post below
69 98 74
78 117 81
74 94 68
then 4 corners (69 + 74 + 74 +68) = 285/4 = 71.25 , vignetting = 71.25/117 = 60%
vignetting in a standard non-condenser build is generally in the 40s, with a precondenser , it should be in the 60s, and some have seen in the high 70s
*************************************************************************

so far these are the people I know who have built or are building pjs with precondensers:

PLOGS Using precondensers:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Simul8r:15"lcd, T15 bulb,5" ladle reflector
using Surplus Shed condenser - 4.5(Dia)x6.5)FL) (or on ebay here: http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem
Newest PLOG: http://www.lumenlab....s...c=10287&hl=
Older PLOG, lots of theory in here: http://www.lumenlab....s...ic=9656&hl=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dazzla :17"lcd,HQI bulb :
PLOG: http://www.lumenlab....s...ic=8388&hl=
almost forgot, the fabulous Precondenser calculator! : http://www.lumenlab....s...c=11256&hl=
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ArizonaVideo: 17" lcd, testing with every bulb and reflector known to man
condenser thread: http://www.lumenlab....s...12084&st=40 - using the osram HQI bulb - 6x6.5 condenser
PLOG: http://www.lumenlab....s...ic=9125&hl=
AV does a lot of overclocking of ballasts and baalst/bulb testing.... please be extremely careful if you try any of it, bulbs can blow up if mistreated or used on the wrong ballasts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GadgetSmith: 15.4 WUXGA : hqi bulbs, condenser on the way!
PLOG: http://www.lumenlab....s...ic=5681&hl=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
meyer2: no PLOG yet some info from him down below: http://www.lumenlab....s...id=149676&#
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MichaelJ : HAMI 8" lcd, 76mm dia/107mm FL precondensor
no PLOG, but some info here: http://www.lumenlab....s...;p=121223&#
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mikyd1954 17" lcd, usually powerstripped down in size, SurplusShed condenser, ikea reflector, Sims ladle reflector
PLOG : http://www.lumenlab....s...975&st=160#
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Durachko: 17"lcd , condenser on the way(see the preconders sources)
PLOG: http://www.lumenlab....s...ic=8957&hl=
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rearden has been using a 4-5/8x12 SShed lens but like the rest of us, its finally succumbed to he heat
17" 720p lcd, with a norpro bowl for reflector
heres his PLOG: http://www.lumenlab....mp;#entry154755
currently looking for a high heat 6x12
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if any of those guys want to post some measurements, numbers, lightbox/cooling designs etc,that would help us all keep track of whats going on
also if anyone finds sources for lenses that would be great...
I'll add some stuff to here from my own PLOG sometime this weekend... or later today if my brain leaves early from work!

LUX Readings:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, heres Arizonavideos final numbers with the HQI-TS400/d, running on an S51 ballast overdriven to 550watts(added 10uf cap)
550mm/330mm, 6"x165mm condenser lens ,lamp running at 550 watts
adjusted for max vignetting so lumens are lower
Colortrans 8" reflector
110 115 107
123 141 129
96 106 124
Average is 106 LUX screen is 2.3M and stray light is 25 LUX so about 186 ANSI,
5%(measured in pj) lcd transmission
Vignetting: 77% !!!
-------------------------
600mm/220mm Fresnel combo and the same 165mm x 6" condenser lens and the 8" Colortran reflector and the 450mm fl Buhl triplet, adjusted for max vignetting(light meter set to side and adjusted for max lux):
105 165 126
145 231 149
111 172 140
Avarage=149 lux With a 2.3M screen 342 ANSI lumen ( I left in the stray light.)(edit:299 lumens with the ambient light removed-mikyd)
Stray light was around 20 LUX the lamp was running at 550 watts.
Vignetting:52%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Draw your own conclusions about vignetting versus lumens, remember this is with a 5% lcd....
---------- Av with 6"x16" precondenser:
NO lcd in these readings
Colortrans reflector,220mm rear fresnel,600mm front fresnel, Buhl triplet:
at 400 watts(s51 standard ballast- 55uf)
Lux meter was at 10x no LCD with a screen of 2.3M and a cutout for a 17" LCD.
191 319 194
215 455 246
170 348 230
Average is 2631 LUX with a screen of 2.3M = 6051 ANSI lumens and with a 5% LCD you might get 302 ANSI
Vignetting:43%

Next is the high power setting at 550 watts.
209 395 234
267 555 305
233 417 278
Average = 3214 LUX with a screen of 2.3M = 7393 ANSI lumens. With a 5% LCD you might get 370 ANSI lumens
Vignetting:43%
--------------------------------------

NEWS:
meyer2 got the Altman pcx 4.5x6.5 lens, it is indeed 4.5" in diameter so equivalent to the Shed lens, but hopefully Pyrex so it should last a lot longer

[samuraijack]

arizonavideo, on Jun 23 2006, 06:39 PM, said:

I oredered some altman parts from these guys and the price was less than listed and they did shipp the parts. Helpfull on the phone too.

http://www.productio...instparts.htm#L

I think he said the altman condenser was $48.00 or $41.00 shipping is OK too.

These guys are literally right down the street from me. I work in Williston!

Sweet!

[mikyd1954]

samuraijack, on Jun 23 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

These guys are literally right down the street from me. I work in Williston!

Sweet!

seriously? walk down there some day and tell them to find us a 6x6.5" pyrex lens, I KNOW they are out there somewhere......

[Durachko]

Maybe you'll find this useful?
A search for "plano convex" on pnta gives:

C2022602 Plano Convex Lens 4.5" X 9" $54.00
C2519602 Plano Convex Lens 4.5" X 6.5" $56.00
C28017 Plano Convex Lens 4.5" X 6" $80.25
C2345002 Plano Convex Lens 6" X 9" $69.80
C2359602 Plano Convex Lens 6" X 12" $66.85
a181001 3" Fresnel Lens - L/F3 (for 100) $12.30
A181002 6" Fresnel Lens - L/F6 (for 65q-165q) $25.90
A181003 6" Fresnel Lens -L/F6AF (for 1kaf) $36.90
A181004 8" Fresnel Lens -L/F8 $66.90
A181011 4.5 X 2.5 X 6.5 Lens -DYNA24 $59.10
A182005 Plano Convex Lens LPP3.5" X 10" $36.30
A182004 Plano Convex Lens LPP3.5" X 8" $36.30
A182003 Plano Convex Lens LPP3.5" X 6" $36.30
A182012 Plano Convex Lens LPWP 4.5" X 6.5" $47.30
A182013 Plano Convex Lens LPWP 4.5" X 9" $48.10
A182015 Plano Convex Lens LPWP 4.5" X 12" $48.10
A182008 Plano Convex Lens LPP 6" X 9" $55.50
A182009 Plano Convex Lens LPP 6" X 12" $55.10
A182010 Plano Convex Lens LPP 6" X 16" $55.50
A182002 Plano-convex Lens L/PP 3.5" X 5" $36.30
A182006 Plano Convex Lens L/PP 3.5" X 12" $36.30
A182033 Plano Convex Lens L/PWP 8" X 20" $144.00

[mikyd1954]

will edit this probably in the morning...thinking of linking to peoples PLOGS or threads and maybe adding lcd size, precondensers they are using/testing, reflectors....
like:
Simul8r: (PLOG link)
15" lcd
lenses: 4.5x6.5,4-5/8x12 (crown glass)
reflector:5" ladle
mikyd1954:(PLOG link)
17"lcd
lenses: 4.5x6.5,(crown glass)
reflector:5" ladle,ikea napkin ring

hmmm...looks good to me....
may turn this thread into a "Sources/Equipment" thread

[GadgetSmith]

mikyd,
this is the hardest part... trying to "organize" everything to make it easy to post to and also easy to enter info... part of the problem with the plog is that I never get to it.. always floating around from one thread to the next posting my info all over the place... but perhaps that is what's best...(except for the person posting as it's hard to keep track of where all the info is entered), but keeping all info central for someone looking for it on a particular subject...

honestly, it doesn't bother me one way or the other, just thought i'd throw in my 1.5 cents...

gs

[meyer2]

Durachko, on Jun 24 2006, 06:01 AM, said:

C2519602 Plano Convex Lens 4.5" X 6.5" $56.00

Just remember, on the PNTA site, that part number starts with a "C" which means its a Colortran part,
Altman parts start with an "A".

I don't know about you guys but I am after a 6"x6.5" condenser, the 4.5"x6.5" is great but its not quite wide enough for other experiments I want to do.

ArizonaVideo has 6"x6.5" lens's galore because he acquired them as part of complete light fittings but I can't find even one source for an individual lens of that size online.

As AV suggested and others may have guessed, as far as Altman are concerned anyway, the part listed as a replacement lens, ie. 4.5"x6.5" are in fact 6" diameter. Colortran have an identical size lens but who knows if its actually 6" in diameter.

I have ordered an Altman 4.5"x6.5" lens through Vincent Lighting Systems because I know they get them direct from Altman using the official Altman part number #18-2012. When it arrives I will report back as to its actual diameter.

[meyer2]

As I said in GadgetSmith's plog, my Surplus Shed condenser sits happily 6.5mm from the outer envelope of an Osram HQI-TS400, thats 22mm from the centre of the arc. I've experimented with it closer but at 3mm closer and 3.5mm from the envelope it will crack the condenser for sure, been through 3 Surplus Shed condensers already.

Here are my results using this setup. Sceen 92" 16:9 2.3m2, 330/600 fresnals, Pro lens, vertical, Samsung 740B 5.5% transmissive.

69 98 74
78 117 81
74 94 68

Vignetting 60.9%, 192 ansi lumens.
edit: recalculated vignetting correctly.

Someone on this forum said picture theatre projections are 100 lumens per square metre and I have always been happy with the brightness of picture theatres projections so my final goal with this projector is to reach that magical figure, so thats 230 ansi lumens in my case. I'm not interested in trying to emulate commercial home theatre projectors, that would involve 1000 watt lamps and I really don't want to go down that route.

How do the projections look right now with 192 ansi lumens? With my old 15" LL projector a lot of my DVDs' were not watchable really, well, the animated ones like Monster Inc, Iceage etc were great but I tend to be picky with picture quality. But one of my all time favourites, "Where Eagles Dare" which was filmed almost entirely at night or at least dimmed to make it look like night was simply not watchable on the 15".

I've watched "Where Eagles Dare" twice now and its stunning, especially with the picture enhancement software running, the contrast and brightness are just right. Here are some pictures of the lightbox.

Attached File(s)

•  PPP6200007.jpg (98.88K)
  Number of downloads: 17

This post has been edited by meyer2: 26 June 2006 - 02:54 PM

[arizonavideo]

There is only so many type of pro spotlights almost all the elliptical use a 6" diameter lens tube. It is a standard size there is different lengthens. I have never found an 8" but have heard of some used in the old days. There is a smaller 3.5 " used in restaurants and retail lighting. Everyone also makes a follow spot around 6" but they have up to six lenses in them and I don't think any will have a real short FL.

I did buy Two Altman 6 x 16 lens tubes with the lens (I had him ship just the lens) they are 6" x 400mm fl. Too long a fl for most use but I think they may work with a 220mm rear Fresnel.

These are the two old spotlights that I got my condenser lenses from. The black one has an 8” elliptical reflector but the lens tube is 6”. The green one came with only one lens so I got ripped off again. I did buy a 750 watt lamp for it and now use it to look for rats in the trees in the back yard. These things work really well with out any lenses in them.

 P1010015.JPG (25.1K)
Number of downloads: 88

The spacer is about 2 ½ “and the lens tube is about 7 to 8 “long. If you fine one on eBay It can't have a longer lens tube or the lens will have a lot longer fl

 P1010019.JPG (24.98K)
Number of downloads: 83

A few more shots

The green one has a nice multi reflector and works both are for sale if any one wants them. $10.00 with the new $10.00-750 watt lamp in it.

 P1010017.JPG (21.47K)
Number of downloads: 81

The green paint some one put on it is a stinky bad idea.

 P1010016.JPG (27.54K)
Number of downloads: 73

This post has been edited by arizonavideo: 26 June 2006 - 03:54 PM

[mikyd1954]

GadgetSmith, on Jun 23 2006, 07:21 PM, said:

mikyd,
this is the hardest part... trying to "organize" everything to make it easy to post to and also easy to enter info... part of the problem with the plog is that I never get to it.. always floating around from one thread to the next posting my info all over the place... but perhaps that is what's best...(except for the person posting as it's hard to keep track of where all the info is entered), but keeping all info central for someone looking for it on a particular subject...

honestly, it doesn't bother me one way or the other, just thought i'd throw in my 1.5 cents...

gs

yeah, I'm going to let this flow for a while, then I will start trying to organize it somehow.... I don't think this is a "long term" project really(maybe 3-4 months)...like the AG thread it was all over the place but then once the basics were done, just small issues crop up now and then...once enough people have gotten different lenses and bulbs(and there are a limited dnumber of combinations) I think we'll see a fairly small number of answers... but this is the fun part, like with the AG thread... no-one has gotten to the "soak it in water for 12 hours and be careful" point yet

[mikyd1954]

Durachko, on Jun 23 2006, 03:01 PM, said:

Maybe you'll find this useful?
A search for "plano convex" on pnta gives:
......
A182002 Plano-convex Lens L/PP 3.5" X 5" $36.30
A182006 Plano Convex Lens L/PP 3.5" X 12" $36.30
A182033 Plano Convex Lens L/PWP 8" X 20" $144.00

I do know that LPP means pyrex and LWP is the white plate lenses

[arizonavideo]

Just got my invoice from Production Advantage They do have a lower list price but they charged me $19.92 to ship a 4" x 6" x 8" box with less than one OZ inside. I would ask them what the shipping is befoe making an ordder.

[mikyd1954]

arizonavideo, on Jun 24 2006, 09:47 PM, said:

Just got my invoice from Production Advantage They do have a lower list price but they charged me $19.92 to ship a 4" x 6" x 8" box with less than one OZ inside. I would ask them what the shipping is befoe making an ordder.

what kind of shipping? ups ground?

[mikyd1954]

BUMP I added PLOG links and more info to the first post

[GadgetSmith]

Just added some info in my PLOG... basically added a piece of tempered glass from my shoplight (also contains UV protection) right up to the lamp. Outter jacket of lamp is about 1mm away from glass. Once I get my precondenser installed (tonight hopefully), i'll see if this extra layer of glass keeps the heat down to prevent the crown glass condenser from breaking.

gs

[mikyd1954]

GadgetSmith, on Jun 26 2006, 11:24 AM, said:

Just added some info in my PLOG... basically added a piece of tempered glass from my shoplight (also contains UV protection) right up to the lamp. Outter jacket of lamp is about 1mm away from glass. Once I get my precondenser installed (tonight hopefully), i'll see if this extra layer of glass keeps the heat down to prevent the crown glass condenser from breaking.

gs

thats the sshed condenser? you haven't gotten you one form vincentlighting yet have you?

[GadgetSmith]

mikyd1954, on Jun 26 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

thats the sshed condenser? you haven't gotten you one form vincentlighting yet have you?

I bought two of the SS condensers a while ago, so i'm using them for now.... I figured i'll wait to hear back from meyer2 or samuraijack about the actual diameter of the altman 4.5x6.5 lens... since meyer has already ordered and SJ is so close to production advantage I didn't see the sense in ordering before we verify what they are. What i'm really after now is to experience the change in vignetting for myself. I am really happy with the lumen level I have now, just interested to see what effect increasing corner brightness will have. If i'm not impressed I will stay with the 220/650 design... but from what most people say, corner brightness makes a big impact... can't wait to see it for myself !

gs

[mikyd1954]

GadgetSmith, on Jun 26 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

I bought two of the SS condensers a while ago, so i'm using them for now.... I figured i'll wait to hear back from meyer2 or samuraijack about the actual diameter of the altman 4.5x6.5 lens... since meyer has already ordered and SJ is so close to production advantage I didn't see the sense in ordering before we verify what they are. What i'm really after now is to experience the change in vignetting for myself. I am really happy with the lumen level I have now, just interested to see what effect increasing corner brightness will have. If i'm not impressed I will stay with the 220/650 design... but from what most people say, corner brightness makes a big impact... can't wait to see it for myself !

gs

it really does, I'm 99% certain you won't get any more lumens with a 330 rear fresnel and a precondenser than you will with a 220 rear/no condenser, but you can get way better vignetting.... though I withold the increase in lumens till we see what the 6x6.5 condensers can do..yeah, I'm waiting also to see what happens....
and to me the vignetting when it gets up to the 70% range makes a huge difference....

[arizonavideo]

I did a test setup with a 6" x 400mm fl condenser and a 220mm rear fresnel and a 550mm front fresnel and a 128mm x 450mm triplet. I will post more at the HQI 400 thread that is way way over at extreme mods.

The main thing here is the light spread was great and the 400mm fl condenser was able to be far enough from the lamp to alow for the use of ED28 shell lamps.

 small320P1010011.JPG (20.81K)
Number of downloads: 83

I used the HQI lamp at 400 watts but any 400 watt lamp with the same reflector condenser and triplet would be the same. I did not move the lamp closer to fill the triplet all the way I only filled it 80% or so so this setup will also work for the standard triplet and pro lens too.

LUX was

191 319 194
217 455 246
170 348 230

avarge of 2,633 LUX my screen was 2.3m so 6055 lumens and witha a 5% LCD you might get 302 ANSI lumens.

I did the test again with the condenser lens removed.

This is the LUX with just a 550mm/220mm fresnel with the 8" colortran reflector and the lamp at the exact same place. I just removed the 400mm fl condneser lens.

I was thinking the lamp would have to be moved closer to give even light and fill the triplet the same amout as with the condenser but I didn't have to. The triplet image lookes the same size? It should have been smaler and maybe it was I just couldn't tell.

The readings
157 289 148
188 344 193
147 233 152

Average is 2057 LUX with a screen of 2.3M 4731 lumean and with a 5% LCD 236 ANSI lumens.

With the 400mm fl condenser you get 302 ANSI so it's not a lot but it is more. I was hoping for 100 ANSI inprovement.

I didn't spend a long time fine tuning the readings so most people may be able to get even more LUX. The reflector is a big deal if you can push it closer the evenness gets better and the LUX goes way up but with a small triplet I would think things would get worse.

I want to add the Colortran fresnel Spotlight reflector part # and link if any one want's to try it. They do make a 6" fresnel light that should have a 6" reflector too ,but it is unknown the size or FL.

part # SMP-28058-00 8" colottran fresnel spotlight reflector from

http://lms.leviton.com/contactus.aspx

The 8" reflector iwas 32.00 shipped

This post has been edited by arizonavideo: 05 July 2006 - 06:02 PM

[DAZZZLA]

AV have you got some data without the condenser? Sorry if you've posted this already.

DJ

[arizonavideo]

DAZZZLA, on Jun 27 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

AV have you got some data without the condenser? Sorry if you've posted this already.

DJ

I added the test to the lux post

This post has been edited by arizonavideo: 29 June 2006 - 02:18 AM

[DAZZZLA]

What I was getting at was seeing if there was an improvment using a pre-condenser with a 220mm FL fresnel. Obviously there will be more lumens collected using a pre-condenser with a 330mmFL compared to a 330mmFL alone. The thing that is not clear at the moment, and something that I haven't got around to testing yet, is if there is an improvement in vignetting and or lumens with and without a pre-con used with a 220mm FL rear fresnel.

DJ

[mikyd1954]

speaking of baselines... heres mine(more details in my PLOG)
220/600, 18"buhl, no reflector,no condenser 50x40 screen(1.3 meters sq), 17"diagoanl cutout, no LCD,x10 range on meter
118 222 125
198 375 210
129 224 130
avg. LUX = 1923 lux * 1.3 = 2500 lumens
vignetting = 33% ... I got tired of fiddling with the distances to up the vignetting, I know I've had it up in the low 40s with a 220 rear fresnel, best I could do with this was 37%..
---added the pro reflector to the setup, still no LCD, x10 range :
180 310 180
312 555 314
190 325 195
avg. LUX = 2845 lux * 1.3 = 3699 lumens
vignetting = 33%
--------------------
I'll concede that I could get the vignetting up to the low 40s, albeit at the expense of lumens

[DAZZZLA]

arizonavideo, on Jun 28 2006, 01:05 PM, said:

I added the test to the lux post

Thanks AV. So from your results it appears that adding a pre-con to the 220mmFL doesn't do much for vignetting. Without the pre-con it is 43% and with the pre-con it is nearly 44%. Not a great gain as I suspected but it's still not a bad effort in terms of lumens gain though. We will have to wait to see what Mikyd comes up with. I'm geussing there will be less gain.

DJ

[GadgetSmith]

Yea, Thanks AV.
Lumen gain of 28% with addition of 6" precondenser, basically without effecting vignetting or changing from standard frensels... this is good news for those lumen hunters out there.

I should ask; did you try to attain an increase in vignetting ? ... even if it was at the expense of some lumens ? I guess i'm just interested in knowing if you were purposefully keeping the reflector and condenser far enough away so that large envelope lamps would be able to be used in your setup, or if the placements just worked out that way ?

Thanks again.
gs